Should I Ask Primary Guest to Add Names of Guests to Reservation

Sorry @RebeccaF, I missed this one.

Up until last year, to the best of my knowledge Airbnb essentially self insured in respect of public liability cover for hosts. In November they transferred the liability to third party insurers, Zurich Insurance from the UK and Generali SPA of Italy.

I suspect this is mainly down to the new owners (institutional stockholders) having had time to look over the books and internal processes, and then deciding that they didn’t like the level of exposure.

It’s still capped at 1m USD but with added layers of complexity in order to make a claim. The terms & conditions are pretty tight, and the list of exclusions is lengthy.

Some might say that it’s a good thing, that the policy is now underwritten by actual insures, but the issue is that as I read it, Airbnb are the client, not the host; which essentially means they are the ultimate arbiter in respect of a claim.

I found this little snippet interesting;

In the United States, in certain instances, the HLI program is underwritten by a non-admitted insurer and may not be subject to your state’s insurance laws and regulations and is not protected by the insolvency guaranty fund.

Like many things related to Airbnb nowadays, there is a feeling that hosts are at the bottom of the pile.

JF

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Excellent information and reasoning, Thank you.

Please tell me why. Oh, and also, why the inverted commas?

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I wrote that I was surprised you were the moderator because you did not moderate the dialog. I put your title in quotation marks to emphasize the moderation role and its meaning as someone mediating between/among others. You did not moderate.

Many of the responses to my question were not on point, did not recite facts or apply reasoning. Instead, responses largely focused on my question’s premise of trying to take advantage, so far as possible, of the liability insurance provided by Airbnb, Even there reasoning was not applied, just dismissive judgmental epithets like ‘naive’ or ‘foolish.’ That was the thrust of many responses, which also went off on the tangent of whether it is ever reasonable for a Host to rely on Airbnb’s liability insurance. Several posts made inaccurate statements about what I wrote, for example that I was in favor of self-insuring (never said).

You, as moderator, did not address any of that. In fact, you added fuel to the fire with your ‘bee in a bonnet’ post, saying, inaccurately, that I was seeking agreement when I was plainly asking for information and input. Please re-read my original post.

Several posts were responsive, saying that they do ask for the names of guests and that their experience was that it was not off putting. That was valuable input that my question asked.

One said that following the Airbnb link on how to add names to a reservation required accounts and was therefore too burdensome. The requirement to create accounts by each guest is not apparent from the Airbnb Help center, but more useful feedback to explore.

Finally, we received a very informative post from @JJD who pointed out that the experience some have had with property claims is not relevant because there is a different administrator for the liability coverage, and it’s a different kind of coverage. He also pointed out the difficulty in accurately responding to my question without seeing the insurance policy itself, which JJD pointed to as the next step in understanding what might reduce liability. Finally, he introduced a new distinction of ‘anticipated trespasser’ – which I don’t know whether is applicable to Massachusetts but it well might. AND he raised the idea that under premises liability law that the Host would be liable for all but explicitly warned trespassers, a very relevant point.

So, no, I don’t think you moderated the discussion at all, simply took sides, and erroneously so because my ‘side’ was to explore whether getting the guests registered might spark a backlash among such guests. It was a question, not a statement. My rationale for asking the question was Airbnb’s statement in the customer service dialog that the liability protection applied only to a claim by a registered guest, a statement I accepted as a given.

And, of course, that was what many posters went after. They could go after that with general statements that Airbnb is unreliable, is only a platform, that it’s your business that you must run, that you must buy your own STR insurance in all cases, and on and on. These were general statements that they could have made regarding anything Airbnb and did not further the dialog. Again, you did nothing to call this out, and yourself mis-stated the dialog being sought.

I got the feeling that perhaps this group might largely be a small club, set in their ways, cynical if not dismissive of both Airbnb and the occasional Host, who are eager to scold Hosts who have not come to the same conclusions as they have about how to run the business, who when faced with a question they don’t have anything substantive to add to fall back on their general negative feelings about Airbnb or opportunity to scold others or hold themselves superior in some way.

Thank you for asking the question.

Your raising the possibility that hosts rent directly or on other platforms is important. If you rent directly then your net worth is on the line if you don’t have STR insurance, which for me would be an unreasonable risk to take. If you rent on VRBO, I am told (though I have not independently verified it) that VRBO’s protection applies only if you have your own STR. SO it’s additive, but the condition precedent is that you have commercial STR coverage.

A perhaps obvious but important point to make in this tangential discussion on insurance is that even if a Host maintains a very safe property a lawsuit is very likely if someone is hurt in an accident. It might well be that the Host would ultimately found not to be liable, BUT the Host must still defend the lawsuit, which is very costly.

As much or more than even the cost of the litigation, the Host must find a skilled lawyer in this kind of litigation to represent the Host. Of course the insurance company has such lawyers – it’s all they do – and they’re employees, on staff. So, to me, one of the main benefits of insurance is the access to such lawyers without any cost beyond my insurance premium.

For anyone who has hired a lawyer, the insurance premium fees pale in comparison.

Your response here uses verbal tricks to impugn Airbnb’s coverage.

Of Airbnb’s insurance you say “with added layers of complexity in order to make a claim.” Really? Here’s the form. It’s just one page. https://www.airbnb.com/insurance/form

You say the “terms and conditions are pretty tight.” Aren’t they always? Certainly terms and conditions should not be vague. Right? Vague terms and conditions would be a bad thing, right?

You say the “list of exclusions is lengthy.” On its face, a true statement. But the exclusions aren’t unreasonable, or are they? Take a look: Host Liability Insurance Program Summary - Airbnb Help Center

I agree with the implicit thrust of your post, which is that it is better to have your own STR policy than to rely only on Airbnb’s because you not Airbnb are the customer in your own policy, and your policy will likely or surely be subject to your state’s regulations and protections. [If you or I were more knowledgeable on this topic I bet there are more specific advantages to having your own policy than either of us are reciting.]

But why not just leave it there? Why gild the lilly with the erroneous “added layers of complexity,” the implicit foreboding of “terms and conditions are pretty tight,” the ominous drum beat of “the list of exclusions lengthy.” Yikes! You’re really trying to scare us into your point of view/victim’s agenda that Hosts are at the bottom of the pile.

Why not just the facts, and fact-based reasoning/opinions, and let the reader make up its own mind? Don’t you trust us to come to reasonable conclusions on our own?

I imagine you’re saying this because you think that there’s something negative about non-admitted insurers? I realize you’re not likely familiar with insurance in the US and I don’t know if they do it the same over yonder where you are.

There’s nothing wrong with a non-admitted insurer, it is not lesser. They are still regulated, only differently and by different governing bodies. It is not the wild west that the name implies it is. Lloyd’s of London is the largest non-admitted insurer. It is Lloyd’s of London that underwrites the STR for Proper.

Non-admitted insurers are backed by financial institutions instead of a state-fund, but it is not more or less, better or worse, it is just a different kind of insurance. There is no other way for Airbnb to buy a liability policy to cover hosts throughout the whole US. Insuring Airbnb hosts is an unusual market, a speciality area. And it is the only way to insure speciality markets. new markets, unpredictable markets, high risk markets and any market that admitted-insurers don’t insure like hunting insurance, waterfront property, businesses that have no prior insurance history, etc

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This year the liability policy became Primary, which means a host can collect directly from it before exhausting another policy that they may have. Before this year, it was a Secondary policy meaning that it couldn’t be collected on until a host had exhausted their own policy coverage.

Now, if a host has a liability claim (that is not one of the many things that is not covered by the HLI) then they could claim entirely on the HLI from Airbnb and not at all on their own STR policy, which may avoid an increase in premiums for the host. And it will give coverage to hosts that don’t have their own STR policy (which obviously is a big risk to take).

I may see if I can get a copy of the policy so we can see what it really covers. Without the policy, it’s mostly conjecture. But for now, I’d file it under better-than-nothing but maybe not much better, lol.

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FYI: In the last hour I went to the Help center and asked for a copy of the policy itself, explicitly saying that I did not want the summary that I can already see. We’ll see what happens. If you’re trying too that’e even better.

Did you just talk to someone at Airbnb? If so, I don’t think that’s the best bet. If you go to this page, it is connected to the insurance services (not just Airbnb) and I think will be more likely to be fruitful:

Wow. There is ZERO need to get snippy with the moderators, who are doing this for free and have many, many years of experience dealing with AirBnB. Just because you don’t like the answers doesn’t mean you should be rude.

Actually, you got info. You didn’t like it.

Air is notorious (read forum threads) for NOT honoring the liability claims. Search the forum.

Wow. Rude to one of the best hosts on the forum?

STR Insurance is REQUIRED in most states, as is a business license.

Whether or not YOU have commercial insurance is a straw man. The fact is, running a business without insurance is just plain stupid.

Search the forum, you’re just being argumentative towards people trying to help you.

THIS.

Search the forum.

hahaaa.

Oh, you’re one of ‘those’ posters on the forum. Following @KKC and blocking you after this.

Many people, myself included, answered your question and you continued to be argumentative.

Clearly you already know the answers to the questions you’ve posed and now you’re a troll.

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I have searched the forum and I honestly find anything. I can only find instances about the damage protection and I realize I’ve never heard anything about a host claiming on the liability coverage. I am truly interested, can you find something for me?

I’m interested because I’m starting to think that there’s an NDA involved with a liablity claim because I can’t find any stories about it. Guess I’m curious how they’re doing that.

No, it was poor positioning of the snippet :rofl: and the “interesting” part is the lack of access to government protection. I had no idea what the differences were in respect of admitted versus non admitted. In the UK, there is the FSCS, who are the safety net if an insurer fails, or is unable to service claims and here in Spain we have similar protections.

As an aside, Lloyds of London isn’t an insurance company per se; it’s a market place where multiple syndicates take on risks, placed with them by multiple layers of brokers (specific term, not related to a traditional insurance broker).

Sadly, most regular insurers aren’t that keen on the STR sector, our current policy is underwritten by Joe Bloggs Syndicate 427 at Lloyds, based in Gibraltar :slightly_smiling_face:

Regarding admitted and non admitted insurers:

Vrbo offer a similar guarantee and the sole insurer (worldwide) is also Generali SPA, who appear to be an admitted insurer, which suggests it can be done.

On the surface, that’s a good thing. However, until we see any evidence that hosts are receiving a better level of coverage than before, the jury is most definitely out. I’m still of the opinion that this move was made solely to benefit Airbnb, by reducing their exposure and at the same time providing a bit of good PR for prospective new cannon fodder sorry I meant hosts.

I can tell you what it doesn’t cover :frowning_face:

This one made me laugh!

  • Chinese Drywall: injury or damage arising from or connected in any way to drywall, plasterboard, sheetrock, gypsum board, or any materials used in the manufacture of drywall used in the construction of interior walls, that were manufactured in, originated from, or exported from China or incorporated any component parts or materials made in, originated from, or exported from China.

I can just see a claim inspector taking core samples from the plasterboard throught the property and sending it all off to the lab for analysis :rofl:

They may say that the actual policy, which is issued to Airbnb solely not hosts, is considered commercially sensitive, and simply refer you to the above. What would be far more illuminating is the policy contract, that’s where the real meat is!

JF

Actually I did read a story about a house burning down in Sonoma County CA, in which the Airbnbers were smoking, with the implication that a lit cigarette might be responsible for burning the house down, AND ALSO there was non-code electrical work near the deck that burned. The Fire Department’s evaluation was that the cause was indeterminate. Airbnb initially did not pay out but eventually did pay something (we don’t know how much), but the owner explicitly said that there was some kind of confidentiality agreement.

That rings a bell. There was the story reported in the mainstream media a while back about a young female guest who was assaulted (sexually assaulted?) and I’m sure there was mention of an NDA being required by Trust and Safety.

In fact wasn’t there an article devoted to T&S and their liberal use of dollars and NDA’s to make problems go away? The thrust of the article was Airbnb’s efforts to reduce bad press in the run up to the IPO I think.

I’ve got a date with a glass of Oloroso (Rio Viejo in case OH is interested) and some Spanish reprobates round the corner shortly, so haven’t got time to chase either down right now. You’ll do it five mins I’m sure :wink:

JF

It was as recent as last week, I believe and reposted several times.

#DryJanuary is a mistake and it’s only the 6th. :wink:

Well that would vary by state in the US, whether they are admitted or non admitted. Anyway, it really doesn’t matter whether they or they aren’t, in the US, you guys have different systems over there.

Definitely PR. No doubt about that.

My understanding – I could be mistaken – is that VRBO coverage is very different from Airbnb’s insurance coverage. That for VRBO insurance coverage to apply the Host must have commercial insurance. So, that’s a completely different ballpark. So, when you say ‘it can be done’ the ‘it’ that Airbnb is doing is different from the ‘it’ VRBO is doing.

What really moves the problem solving forward are the facts and reasoning. Taking every opportunity to swipe at Airbnb is at best a distraction and at worse a signal that maybe most everything you’re writing is biased, cherry picked or otherwise twisted to suit your clear venom for Airbnb. I wish you’d reconsider that.

Here are a couple specific to injuries. There are so many posts about insurance and coverage or lack of it and no way of knowing if any of them discuss liability issues without reading thousands of posts.

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That sounds like a secondary policy, if they’re requiring hosts to have their own policy. It would only cover what the host’s insurance didn’t cover, excess or whatnot.

Sounds to me that VRBO (I don’t use them so don’t know for sure) has what Airbnb formerly did, kind of, because I don’t remember Airbnb requiring a primary policy but perhaps they did and didn’t tell anyone, which is not unimaginable.

When @JohnF says it can be done it’s because he thinks that non admitted insurance is lesser than admitted insurance which it isn’t, it’s merely a different product, often much better but not less. Usually more expensive though. I would have all non admitted insurance products if I could afford them.