Should I Ask Primary Guest to Add Names of Guests to Reservation

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Excellent information and reasoning, Thank you.

[jaquo]

@HostAirbnbVRBO

I am surprised that you are a ‘moderator.’

Please tell me why. Oh, and also, why the inverted commas?

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

I wrote that I was surprised you were the moderator because you did not moderate the dialog. I put your title in quotation marks to emphasize the moderation role and its meaning as someone mediating between/among others. You did not moderate.

Many of the responses to my question were not on point, did not recite facts or apply reasoning. Instead, responses largely focused on my question’s premise of trying to take advantage, so far as possible, of the liability insurance provided by Airbnb, Even there reasoning was not applied, just dismissive judgmental epithets like ‘naive’ or ‘foolish.’ That was the thrust of many responses, which also went off on the tangent of whether it is ever reasonable for a Host to rely on Airbnb’s liability insurance. Several posts made inaccurate statements about what I wrote, for example that I was in favor of self-insuring (never said).

You, as moderator, did not address any of that. In fact, you added fuel to the fire with your ‘bee in a bonnet’ post, saying, inaccurately, that I was seeking agreement when I was plainly asking for information and input. Please re-read my original post.

Several posts were responsive, saying that they do ask for the names of guests and that their experience was that it was not off putting. That was valuable input that my question asked.

One said that following the Airbnb link on how to add names to a reservation required accounts and was therefore too burdensome. The requirement to create accounts by each guest is not apparent from the Airbnb Help center, but more useful feedback to explore.

Finally, we received a very informative post from @JJD who pointed out that the experience some have had with property claims is not relevant because there is a different administrator for the liability coverage, and it’s a different kind of coverage. He also pointed out the difficulty in accurately responding to my question without seeing the insurance policy itself, which JJD pointed to as the next step in understanding what might reduce liability. Finally, he introduced a new distinction of ‘anticipated trespasser’ – which I don’t know whether is applicable to Massachusetts but it well might. AND he raised the idea that under premises liability law that the Host would be liable for all but explicitly warned trespassers, a very relevant point.

So, no, I don’t think you moderated the discussion at all, simply took sides, and erroneously so because my ‘side’ was to explore whether getting the guests registered might spark a backlash among such guests. It was a question, not a statement. My rationale for asking the question was Airbnb’s statement in the customer service dialog that the liability protection applied only to a claim by a registered guest, a statement I accepted as a given.

And, of course, that was what many posters went after. They could go after that with general statements that Airbnb is unreliable, is only a platform, that it’s your business that you must run, that you must buy your own STR insurance in all cases, and on and on. These were general statements that they could have made regarding anything Airbnb and did not further the dialog. Again, you did nothing to call this out, and yourself mis-stated the dialog being sought.

I got the feeling that perhaps this group might largely be a small club, set in their ways, cynical if not dismissive of both Airbnb and the occasional Host, who are eager to scold Hosts who have not come to the same conclusions as they have about how to run the business, who when faced with a question they don’t have anything substantive to add to fall back on their general negative feelings about Airbnb or opportunity to scold others or hold themselves superior in some way.

Thank you for asking the question.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Your raising the possibility that hosts rent directly or on other platforms is important. If you rent directly then your net worth is on the line if you don’t have STR insurance, which for me would be an unreasonable risk to take. If you rent on VRBO, I am told (though I have not independently verified it) that VRBO’s protection applies only if you have your own STR. SO it’s additive, but the condition precedent is that you have commercial STR coverage.

A perhaps obvious but important point to make in this tangential discussion on insurance is that even if a Host maintains a very safe property a lawsuit is very likely if someone is hurt in an accident. It might well be that the Host would ultimately found not to be liable, BUT the Host must still defend the lawsuit, which is very costly.

As much or more than even the cost of the litigation, the Host must find a skilled lawyer in this kind of litigation to represent the Host. Of course the insurance company has such lawyers – it’s all they do – and they’re employees, on staff. So, to me, one of the main benefits of insurance is the access to such lawyers without any cost beyond my insurance premium.

For anyone who has hired a lawyer, the insurance premium fees pale in comparison.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Your response here uses verbal tricks to impugn Airbnb’s coverage.

Of Airbnb’s insurance you say “with added layers of complexity in order to make a claim.” Really? Here’s the form. It’s just one page. https://www.airbnb.com/insurance/form

You say the “terms and conditions are pretty tight.” Aren’t they always? Certainly terms and conditions should not be vague. Right? Vague terms and conditions would be a bad thing, right?

You say the “list of exclusions is lengthy.” On its face, a true statement. But the exclusions aren’t unreasonable, or are they? Take a look: Host Liability Insurance Program Summary - Airbnb Help Center

I agree with the implicit thrust of your post, which is that it is better to have your own STR policy than to rely only on Airbnb’s because you not Airbnb are the customer in your own policy, and your policy will likely or surely be subject to your state’s regulations and protections. [If you or I were more knowledgeable on this topic I bet there are more specific advantages to having your own policy than either of us are reciting.]

But why not just leave it there? Why gild the lilly with the erroneous “added layers of complexity,” the implicit foreboding of “terms and conditions are pretty tight,” the ominous drum beat of “the list of exclusions lengthy.” Yikes! You’re really trying to scare us into your point of view/victim’s agenda that Hosts are at the bottom of the pile.

Why not just the facts, and fact-based reasoning/opinions, and let the reader make up its own mind? Don’t you trust us to come to reasonable conclusions on our own?

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

FYI: In the last hour I went to the Help center and asked for a copy of the policy itself, explicitly saying that I did not want the summary that I can already see. We’ll see what happens. If you’re trying too that’e even better.

[casailinglady]

@HostAirbnbVRBO

And, again, this is about liability coverage, not property damage. Please follow along.

Wow. There is ZERO need to get snippy with the moderators, who are doing this for free and have many, many years of experience dealing with AirBnB. Just because you don’t like the answers doesn’t mean you should be rude.

@HostAirbnbVRBO

You added nothing but judgmental statements, no reasoning whatsoever.

Actually, you got info. You didn’t like it.

Air is notorious (read forum threads) for NOT honoring the liability claims. Search the forum.

@HostAirbnbVRBO

I am not asking for agreement at all, That is the straw man you’d like to argue against. I have commercial insurance, but I don’t think that just because I decided to get it that EVERYONE must, though I am open to being challenged. It’s just that saying that that is ‘naive’ or ‘foolish’ is not an argument, not reasoning at all.

Wow. Rude to one of the best hosts on the forum?

STR Insurance is REQUIRED in most states, as is a business license.

Whether or not YOU have commercial insurance is a straw man. The fact is, running a business without insurance is just plain stupid.

@HostAirbnbVRBO

to provide such facts and reasoning.

Search the forum, you’re just being argumentative towards people trying to help you.

@muddy

But hey. I suggest you place some obstacles somewhere which might cause a registered guest to slip and fall, and then get back to us to let us know how well Airbnb’s liability insurance worked out for you.

THIS.

@HostAirbnbVRBO

that no one here can cite any situation where Airbnb has not come through on its liability coverage

Search the forum.

@KKC

Not by me because I will never see another post by this forum ID again. LOL.

hahaaa.

@HostAirbnbVRBO

I got the feeling that perhaps this group might largely be a small club, set in their ways, cynical if not dismissive of both Airbnb and the occasional Host, who are eager to scold Hosts who have not come to the same conclusions as they have about how to run the business, who when faced with a question they don’t have anything substantive to add to fall back on their general negative feelings about Airbnb or opportunity to scold others or hold themselves superior in some way.

Oh, you’re one of ‘those’ posters on the forum. Following @KKC and blocking you after this.

Many people, myself included, answered your question and you continued to be argumentative.

Clearly you already know the answers to the questions you’ve posed and now you’re a troll.

[JohnF]

@JJD

I imagine you’re saying this because you think that there’s something negative about non-admitted insurers?

…Lloyd’s of London is the largest non-admitted insurer.

No, it was poor positioning of the snippet and the “interesting” part is the lack of access to government protection. I had no idea what the differences were in respect of admitted versus non admitted. In the UK, there is the FSCS, who are the safety net if an insurer fails, or is unable to service claims and here in Spain we have similar protections.

As an aside, Lloyds of London isn’t an insurance company per se; it’s a market place where multiple syndicates take on risks, placed with them by multiple layers of brokers (specific term, not related to a traditional insurance broker).

Sadly, most regular insurers aren’t that keen on the STR sector, our current policy is underwritten by Joe Bloggs Syndicate 427 at Lloyds, based in Gibraltar

Regarding admitted and non admitted insurers:

@JJD

There is no other way for Airbnb to buy a liability policy to cover hosts throughout the whole US.

Vrbo offer a similar guarantee and the sole insurer (worldwide) is also Generali SPA, who appear to be an admitted insurer, which suggests it can be done.

@JJD

This year the liability policy became Primary, which means a host can collect directly from it before exhausting another policy that they may have.

On the surface, that’s a good thing. However, until we see any evidence that hosts are receiving a better level of coverage than before, the jury is most definitely out. I’m still of the opinion that this move was made solely to benefit Airbnb, by reducing their exposure and at the same time providing a bit of good PR for prospective new cannon fodder sorry I meant hosts.

@JJD

I may see if I can get a copy of the policy so we can see what it really covers.

I can tell you what it doesn’t cover

Host Liability Insurance Program Summary - Airbnb Help Center

This one made me laugh!

• Chinese Drywall: injury or damage arising from or connected in any way to drywall, plasterboard, sheetrock, gypsum board, or any materials used in the manufacture of drywall used in the construction of interior walls, that were manufactured in, originated from, or exported from China or incorporated any component parts or materials made in, originated from, or exported from China.

I can just see a claim inspector taking core samples from the plasterboard throught the property and sending it all off to the lab for analysis

They may say that the actual policy, which is issued to Airbnb solely not hosts, is considered commercially sensitive, and simply refer you to the above. What would be far more illuminating is the policy contract, that’s where the real meat is!

JF

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Actually I did read a story about a house burning down in Sonoma County CA, in which the Airbnbers were smoking, with the implication that a lit cigarette might be responsible for burning the house down, AND ALSO there was non-code electrical work near the deck that burned. The Fire Department’s evaluation was that the cause was indeterminate. Airbnb initially did not pay out but eventually did pay something (we don’t know how much), but the owner explicitly said that there was some kind of confidentiality agreement.

[JohnF]

@JJD

I’m interested because I’m starting to think that there’s an NDA

That rings a bell. There was the story reported in the mainstream media a while back about a young female guest who was assaulted (sexually assaulted?) and I’m sure there was mention of an NDA being required by Trust and Safety.

In fact wasn’t there an article devoted to T&S and their liberal use of dollars and NDA’s to make problems go away? The thrust of the article was Airbnb’s efforts to reduce bad press in the run up to the IPO I think.

I’ve got a date with a glass of Oloroso (Rio Viejo in case OH is interested) and some Spanish reprobates round the corner shortly, so haven’t got time to chase either down right now. You’ll do it five mins I’m sure

JF

[casailinglady]

@JohnF

You’ll do it five mins I’m sure

JF

It was as recent as last week, I believe and reposted several times.

#DryJanuary is a mistake and it’s only the 6th.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

My understanding – I could be mistaken – is that VRBO coverage is very different from Airbnb’s insurance coverage. That for VRBO insurance coverage to apply the Host must have commercial insurance. So, that’s a completely different ballpark. So, when you say ‘it can be done’ the ‘it’ that Airbnb is doing is different from the ‘it’ VRBO is doing.

What really moves the problem solving forward are the facts and reasoning. Taking every opportunity to swipe at Airbnb is at best a distraction and at worse a signal that maybe most everything you’re writing is biased, cherry picked or otherwise twisted to suit your clear venom for Airbnb. I wish you’d reconsider that.

[KKC]

@JJD

I am truly interested, can you find something for me?

Here are a couple specific to injuries. There are so many posts about insurance and coverage or lack of it and no way of knowing if any of them discuss liability issues without reading thousands of posts.

Guest injured falling down stairs

A woman who was staying with me fell down a few stairs and broke her arm. She didn’t blame me and it was determined the stairs were safe (she didn’t use the handrail). She got a full refund for the days she couldn’t remain through the extenuating circumstances clause. A week later I received this message from her: Good morning, Ellen. I got in to see an orthopedic doctor yesterday and got the great news that the break in my my shoulder is healing well, and it looks like I most likely won’t need…

Injury on ABB property

First off - want to say this group has been super helpful. I’ve gleaned a lot of information from the search bar. Thank you for being here. We have a couple that checked in on Tuesday here visiting family. I went over and met them, nice couple and we know some mutual people. I messaged her earlier tonight asking if she had any questions about checking out in the morning. I just heard from her. She said that yesterday (morning) her sister came for a visit and fell on the stair walking out of…

[JohnF]

Edited, getting confused due to Oloroso thirst. carry on folks, may come out to play later!

@JJD

When @JohnF says it can be done it’s because he thinks that non admitted insurance is lesser than admitted insurance which it isn’t

@JohnF still doesn’t know the difference between them, and isn’t overly inclined to find out!

JF

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

My understanding – and this came from a Proper insurance agent – is that with VRBO if you do not have your own commercial insurance policy you have no insurance whatsoever from VRBO. I spent only a few minutes trying to verify this on the VRBO site and in those few minutes could not verify it. But if true, it is a world of difference from what Airbnb coverage offers now and what it used to offer.

[JohnF]

A last little snippet, simply because it was still open in my browser

https://help.vrbo.com/articles/What-is-the-1M-Liability-Insurance

Primary coverage for eligible claims - If you don’t have liability insurance for your rental, this program provides that protection. If you do have liability insurance for your rental, this program works with your current provider and gives you $1,000,000 in added protection.

Self explanatory methinks.

JF

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

I found it interesting reading “Injury on ABB property” thread that there were many comments then (July 2019) suggesting that it was important whether the sister who broke her ankle was a registered guest or not and whether the rules permitted the registered guest to invite visitors. This is exactly the dialog I was expecting with my question.

So, either over the last two years a number of people hear have changed their mind on the relevance of the rules and procedures or just the possibility that a Host might rely on those rules and procedures plus Airbnb’s insurance was so outrageous and distracting that many folks here couldn’t get past that to the question that I actually asked.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Methinks it’s self-explanatory too!

So I either missed this or it wasn’t there when I searched. I just emailed the Proper insurance agent who told me that getting your own commercial policy was a prerequisite for getting VRBO’s coverage. Let’s see what he says.

Maybe it was a misunderstanding but regardless you have cleared that up with your quick fact-finding mission!

Thank you.

[KKC]

@JJD

but it is entirely different than the damage policy,

Understood. It makes sense to me that if Airbnb avoids paying whenever possible with damage, they would also try to minimize paying on any liability claims. But I could be wrong. Perhaps Airbnb’s restructuring of the program will bring different results than were reported previously.

If someone wants to rely on Airbnb with minimal evidence that they are reliable, it’s no concern of mine.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Well, since you’e blocking me, I don’t know whether there is any point in responding but here goes.

1. You thought there was zero need to get snippy with the moderators. I was snippy, deliberately so, because I was piqued at the non-responsive responses I was receiving. But yours is fair criticism here.
2. I did get some information, from your first post for example and I acknowledged that generally. But many posts just fell back on negative views of Airbnb and were not fact filled or reasoned. Actually you say again that I can search the forum for Air being notorious on not honoring liability claims. That is not true, as has been explored here. You’re conflating property casualty claims with liability claims.
3. ‘Rude’? I would say ‘direct.’ STR insurance is “REQUIRED” in most states, “as is a business license.” Not in the context of the way that phrase ‘STR insurance’ has been used in these threads, that is a personally owned policy. The much decried (here) Airbnb insurance coverage satisfies most states’ insurance requirement. As for the “fact that running a business without insurance is just plain stupid” well, Airbnb provides insurance. Maybe you mean to say without having your own policy us just plain stupid. If so, that’s just a judgment, opinion without reasoning. Look, I have my own policy too. I’m just unwilling to say anyone who does not have their own policy is stupid, doing something stupid, is naive or foolish. Instead, if asked, I would to the best of my ability point out the risks involved. But anyway, none of this was what my original question was about.
4. I’m being argumentative towards people trying to help. I think I’m holding them to a standard of providing facts or reasoning rather than indulging their penchant to deprecate Airbnb that does not advance anything.
5. Didn’t understand your “THIS” comment. It comes after a ridiculous ‘suggestion’ from a community member here.
6. Examples on where Airbnb did not come through on liability claims. Again, others have not found this as well as me.
7. “Argumentative”? or asking for a fact- and reason-based dialog? Do I know the answers? Hardly. Ask @JJD . A troll? I don’t think I meet the Wikipedia definition of “inflammatory, insincere, digressive”. My sense is that many of you have become complacent, think of yourselves as great repositories of wisdom and knowledge and don’t like it when someone asks you to support your opinions, or to stick to what was asked. Some of you clearly are valuable repositories of knowledge; others I think are resting on their laurels. I’m asking you to up your game.