Edited, getting confused due to Oloroso thirst. carry on folks, may come out to play later!
@JohnF still doesn’t know the difference between them, and isn’t overly inclined to find out!
JF
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My understanding – and this came from a Proper insurance agent – is that with VRBO if you do not have your own commercial insurance policy you have no insurance whatsoever from VRBO. I spent only a few minutes trying to verify this on the VRBO site and in those few minutes could not verify it. But if true, it is a world of difference from what Airbnb coverage offers now and what it used to offer.
A last little snippet, simply because it was still open in my browser 
https://help.vrbo.com/articles/What-is-the-1M-Liability-Insurance
Primary coverage for eligible claims - If you don’t have liability insurance for your rental, this program provides that protection. If you do have liability insurance for your rental, this program works with your current provider and gives you $1,000,000 in added protection.
Self explanatory methinks.
JF
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Thank you. I had found posts about guests injuring themselves at an Airbnb but not anything really about Airbnb paying out or not. In the first post there with Ellen, she never came back to update as to whether Airbnb paid out something or not.
I don’t know. Maybe they did pay her something but she never updated, perhaps there was an NDA, that’s my suspicion, but I’m not sure about it.
Not that anyone should trust it, but it is entirely different than the damage policy, when people are giving examples of Airbnb not paying they are talking about the damage policy.
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I found it interesting reading “Injury on ABB property” thread that there were many comments then (July 2019) suggesting that it was important whether the sister who broke her ankle was a registered guest or not and whether the rules permitted the registered guest to invite visitors. This is exactly the dialog I was expecting with my question.
So, either over the last two years a number of people hear have changed their mind on the relevance of the rules and procedures or just the possibility that a Host might rely on those rules and procedures plus Airbnb’s insurance was so outrageous and distracting that many folks here couldn’t get past that to the question that I actually asked.
Methinks it’s self-explanatory too!
So I either missed this or it wasn’t there when I searched. I just emailed the Proper insurance agent who told me that getting your own commercial policy was a prerequisite for getting VRBO’s coverage. Let’s see what he says.
Maybe it was a misunderstanding but regardless you have cleared that up with your quick fact-finding mission!
Thank you.
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Understood. It makes sense to me that if Airbnb avoids paying whenever possible with damage, they would also try to minimize paying on any liability claims. But I could be wrong. Perhaps Airbnb’s restructuring of the program will bring different results than were reported previously.
If someone wants to rely on Airbnb with minimal evidence that they are reliable, it’s no concern of mine.
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Well, since you’e blocking me, I don’t know whether there is any point in responding but here goes.
- You thought there was zero need to get snippy with the moderators. I was snippy, deliberately so, because I was piqued at the non-responsive responses I was receiving. But yours is fair criticism here.
- I did get some information, from your first post for example and I acknowledged that generally. But many posts just fell back on negative views of Airbnb and were not fact filled or reasoned. Actually you say again that I can search the forum for Air being notorious on not honoring liability claims. That is not true, as has been explored here. You’re conflating property casualty claims with liability claims.
- ‘Rude’? I would say ‘direct.’ STR insurance is “REQUIRED” in most states, “as is a business license.” Not in the context of the way that phrase ‘STR insurance’ has been used in these threads, that is a personally owned policy. The much decried (here) Airbnb insurance coverage satisfies most states’ insurance requirement. As for the “fact that running a business without insurance is just plain stupid” well, Airbnb provides insurance. Maybe you mean to say without having your own policy us just plain stupid. If so, that’s just a judgment, opinion without reasoning. Look, I have my own policy too. I’m just unwilling to say anyone who does not have their own policy is stupid, doing something stupid, is naive or foolish. Instead, if asked, I would to the best of my ability point out the risks involved. But anyway, none of this was what my original question was about.
- I’m being argumentative towards people trying to help. I think I’m holding them to a standard of providing facts or reasoning rather than indulging their penchant to deprecate Airbnb that does not advance anything.
- Didn’t understand your “THIS” comment. It comes after a ridiculous ‘suggestion’ from a community member here.
- Examples on where Airbnb did not come through on liability claims. Again, others have not found this as well as me.
- “Argumentative”? or asking for a fact- and reason-based dialog? Do I know the answers? Hardly. Ask @JJD . A troll? I don’t think I meet the Wikipedia definition of “inflammatory, insincere, digressive”. My sense is that many of you have become complacent, think of yourselves as great repositories of wisdom and knowledge and don’t like it when someone asks you to support your opinions, or to stick to what was asked. Some of you clearly are valuable repositories of knowledge; others I think are resting on their laurels. I’m asking you to up your game.
Thank you @JJD! My request at the Help center was in writing as I try to have a written record where possible. But your link was most on point and I just filled it out. We’ll see what they say. Thank you very, very much.
Well, here is the fabulous response I got when I asked for a copy of the actual liability policy. Not unexpected but no less annoying. The BE CAUTIOUS note at the bottom is particularly odd, my favorite part really 
Nailed it. Even when you know not to expect anything, it’s still irritating to be underwhelmed by them time after time.
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So hosts are not allowed any access to the actual liability policy they are supposedly protected by? Cute.
There was a drop-down menu for the communication and one of the things was “proof of insurance”. I’m going to try that next, for shits and giggles as they/them say.
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Thanks for sharing. I suppose that I will get the same response. It is a little disconcerting that they will not show us the policy. I don’t know that that policy of not disclosing the policy is a wise one as I would think that any ambiguities in the summary would be construed for the Host and against the insurer.
Earlier you wrote that you weren’t so sure that the concept of ‘registered guest’ was central even though Airbnb’s customer service did write that there’s no lability protection from someone who is not a registered guest. [For that reason my rules state that only a registered guest can enter anywhere on the property, inside or out, no matter for how long, even if not overnight.]
In response to my request for ‘best practices’ or suggestions on house rules, the Proper agent wrote: " This question would be best answered by a lawyer. However, in my opinion, the house rules should thoroughly state anything that you do not want your guest to do. So if you don’t want an unregistered guest in the home, I would certainly put that as a house rule." So that was not especially helpful.
It seems to me that my legal/rule strategy to decrease liability is: 1) eliminate the number of guests above occupancy limit even if not overnight and limit to registered guests because it’s common sense that the more people entering the property the more people who can sue, plus now Airbnb has written me that they provide no liability protection for non-registered guests, and 2) throw up roadblocks to a lawsuit by a non-registered guest or even a registered guest. While these roadblocks might not withstand a lawsuit, for every roadblock there is some non-zero chance that they work. So these can include barriers like agreeing not to sue, indemnifying Host for any lawsuit by anyone entering the property, accepting the property ‘as is,’ no warranties, etc.
Of course, the non-legal strategy is to avoid anything that can result in injuries, so making sure that property confirms to code, adequate railings, appropriate warnings, trying to demonstrate to a would-be juror or judge that the Host has done everything reasonable to prevent injuries, creating (more than) adequate signage, House rules and warnings in such. Of course we have first aid kits, fire extinguishers, fire, co2 detectors tested with each rental, locked gates with automatic door closers, that kind of thing. Our Proper insurer requested additional signage, like (we have a pool) “Swim at Your Own Risk” and “No Lifeguard on Duty”) the latter seemed silly but we’re doing.
What do you think about what I have written? Assuming we don’t get policy language, where do you think I should go from here? Do you think I’m right to insist on only registered guests entering the property?
I just received this communication:
The Host Liability Insurance comprehensive program summary provided on the website is available in lieu of the policy document: comprehensive program summary.
The insurance carrier is not in the practice of sharing confidential, proprietary information with those who are not employed with the company or the named insured or have permission from the named insured to receive this information.
I don’t know what the definition of “registered guest” is. Is it someone with an Airbnb account that is put on the reservation online? Or is it someone you separately gather the full name from? Is it just anyone at the Airbnb that doesn’t go over max occupancy?
It doesn’t really matter. There are hundreds of posts (and you know I didn’t jump in on the damage posts, so I mean literally…) of hosts saying they received wrong/different/incongruent information from Airbnb’s CS. This is a known fact. Contact them 10 times, get 10 different answers. You really can’t rely on one CS agent’s advice, you really cannot.
I’m gonna go with “yes”. If for no other reason but that it seems to give you comfort. And perhaps put a bunch of “no trespassing” signs as well. I don’t know and I don’t mean to be harsh but you seem really concerned with it all so you should do what will help you sleep better. If you are just hoping/wishing/praying that Airbnb has your back, I can’t help you with that. If you’re concerned with liabililty then keep your STR policy. If you already have a policy, I can’t imagine why you’re concerned with what Airbnb’s policy requires. Unless this is some kind of fishing trip.
Assuming you’re being sincere, the MA statutes, of which I’m very familiar, are unnecessarily wordy in a former-puritanical-gathering-place kind of way but they are readily available on the internet. Sometimes information is the best thing.
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Thank you for your input.
I do have a commercial policy through Proper. Of course I would not operate without it, but that’s me. I’m not content to leave it at that because: 1) I genuinely want to avoid real risks that might injure someone, whether or not I’m financially protected by insurance, and 2) If I am sued I would like to protect Proper Insurance sofar as I can, either from what I think is a frivolous lawsuit (so this is ‘principle’) or from my premium increasing or even being dropped (so this is self-interest).
On #1 I think contemplating ways that someone might get hurt IS useful. What might seem obvious/common sense to me might not be obvious/common sense to someone else. And vice versa. As an example I was reading our appliance manual that on the self-clean cycle the oven door gets extremely hot and could burn young children, who should be warned to stay away. Well, I never thought of that. My co-host thought it was obvious. It’s not clear what to do about it – add to house manual even though the house is said to be not suitable for children? Add a sign?
At some point it seems ridiculous; we could have many signs. I do have one prominent ‘no trespassing’ sign, but might need one more. But the driveway can become very slippery when we have a freezing rain and during winter. Another sign? The home/property is going to become filled with signs! So obviously we need to steer a middle path, and you probably have figured out that I’m already over the middle line. [LOL].
I do plan on getting a house inspector to make an objective evaluation of the property because there have been prior owners on this 60-year old house and I don’t know if all is up to code. One of the things that Proper required – very reasonable and I can’t believe I didn’t think of it myself – is to have a life preserver by the pool. So, I am embarrassed that I didn’t think of that, which is making me ask ‘What else have I not thought of?’ I had thought that participating in forums like this one might give me further substantive and legal ideas that I had not thought of.
I’m concerned with Airbnb’s policy because if it kicks in then Proper’s policy does not kick in, which gets to #2 above. Plus, if I lose the benefit of the Airbnb policy and if I could easily have avoided that it just seems like I’m ‘leaving money on the table.’
As to the definition of registered guest, I’ve said in rules that they provide the full legal names on the platform. I think there are two ways to do that. One is that when they create the reservation they can add their names to the reservation, which I think is the proper way. I provide a link with my original question on how they can do that but feedback here said that’s burdensome because each guest would need to create an Airbnb account. So I need to look into that. I think but don’t know that if they write a message to me on the platform the names of their guests that that would likely be considered a registered guest. What that would do is (hopefully) prevent someone else from claiming to be a registered guest as the House rules state that they must be registered on the platform, including in a message on the platform, before entering the property and the house rules say to immediately report an injury.
My concern in all this is that I’m being too much of a stickler, and that this will be a turnoff to prospective guests. And yet it seems amazing to me that anyone with a credit card can book your home. Unless their identity is verified we really don’t know who we’re letting in. And if they create a lot of damage, we don’t necessarily know who to sue. Or that a guest could invite someone, or many someone’s, to drop by for an hour, not have a ‘party’ in the sense of creating a disturbance but creating a potential liability.
Plus, even if Proper handles a lawsuit I think that would still be stressful and a suit would last for many years potentially, so I want to avoid that both in a substantive way (keeping the home safe and providing adequate, meaningful warnings) and in a legalistic way.
So that’s my thinking.
I can do more research on MA laws though I think that maybe reading cases will be more informative. I think the bottom line will be whether a juror or judge listening to the particular facts of the case will conclude that the homeowner/host has done all they reasonably could be expected to do. So, except as it discourages bookings, I’m not much concerned about people thinking that I’m going overboard. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I don’t want to go the other way.
A guest might also conclude that I’ve gone a little overboard legally. But they’ll also find a written emergency plan in each bedroom, with 5 gallons of water there, including one gallon of distilled water, a food supply for more than four adults for three days, a range of emergency supplies, and a pre-emergency checklist of apps to download, a list of suggested meeting places, a UPS for power interruption, paper products, a solar lantern, flashlight, whistle, etc. So, while they might think that that too is somewhat overboard, it’s also not a bad thing, costs them nothing, could be helpful.
Thank you again.
I think @JJD did a great job answering your questions here and that this post has run its course. Closing it now.
RR
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