Large groups for a week: typical problems of damage and uncleanliness: any advice?

[georgygirlofairbnb]

You are cramming too many people in your home. The bedrooms look like a hostel or crash pad with all those beds lined up in a room. Not enticing for couples at all. I have a 5 br / 4 bath, with a pool, and I accept a maximum of 12 guests…I provide 2 master suites with King Beds, and then 3 Queen bedrooms. Addtionally, I provide 2 nice cots, to sleep up to 12. In your description, you have no rules about what kind of groups are a match to this house. I suggest you rewrite your description …after you throw out a bunch of beds, and reduce your occupancy. You are getting exactly what ytou are asking for.

HERE ARE SOME CUT AND PASTE DESCRIPTIONS FROM MY LISTING: ( note: This is my rental around the corner and I dont live on this property…I do live on my other property ).

The space

This is a family focused neighborhood.

Golf/Fishing groups = Maximum 5 men allowed.
Traveling Team groups = Maximum 6 kids allowed.

• No Bachelor Party groups allowed
• No Groomsmen groups allowed
• No Under 29 year old groups allowed
• No Party groups allowed

Guest access

This is a neighborhood property on a large lot.
You have full private access to the entire beautiful home and yard.
The garage is not included in the rental.

Other things to note

ABOUT EVENTS

• All gatherings require prior owner approval and a written acceptance of the gathering when making the reservation
• All house visitors in excess of your group, must be disclosed in advance.
• The house and property is for your inputted number of guests only.
• Rehearsal dinners, oyster roasts, shrimp boils, and wedding breakfasts, and all events require prior discussion and written approval. An extra fee is charged. Small family style gatherings are allowed with the extra fee and a larger Security Deposit. You must get a pre-approval from us at the time of booking. You must discuss details with us before placing your reservation.
• No weddings are allowed.

** IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ **
Legal Photo ID may be required: Homeowners Insurance requirement.
Agreement must be signed and returned within 24 hours of booking.
Must place a required Security Deposit Hold (enter information through our Encrypted Software Link) -This Off site transaction is authorized by AirBnb. A valid credit card is required as a security deposit hold. The Hold is released swiftly after an approved departure.
NO Bachelor Party Groups are accepted. Bachelors should Not Request to Book.

Security cameras on property
Exterior Property Parameters, fencing, backyard and Driveway. 24 hour Video Camera security motion recording sensors.There are NO inside cameras.

[georgygirlofairbnb]

Here is description info from my “other house”…where I do live on premises. I hope some of this helps. This one is 4 br / 4 bth and allows 10 guests…which I am thinking of reducing to 8 with a big extra person fee to have 9 or 10.

Part of my Description:

You have found the property that meets your higher expectations.
We are grateful to the Thousands of travelers who have stayed here over the past 13 years.

This is an Adult Focused property.
Perfect for women groups and couples getaways.
Golf/Fishing groups = Maximum allowed is 5 men.

• No Bachelor Parties allowed
• No Groomsmen groups allowed
• No Under 29 year old groups
• No kids groups
• No party groups

Guest access

This is a traditional style original Airbnb, rented out to thousands of guests, for over 13 years. Read years of reviews from past guests. The owners live in a totally separate and Private Apartment over the garage. You reserve the entire primary main home - a house with completely separate “everything". We respect your privacy, but are nearby to quickly assist if you need anything. It is the best of all worlds! You can book here with full confidence that you are selecting a high-quality, well-maintained, multi-million dollar home!

Other things to note

No Parties! This is Not the house for you to Blast your music and have a wild time.
All gatherings require prior owner approval and a written acceptance of the gathering when making the reservation
All house visitors in excess of your group, must be disclosed in advance.
The house and property is for your inputted number of guests only.
Rehearsal dinners, oyster roasts, shrimp boils, and wedding breakfasts, and all events require prior discussion and written approval. An extra fee is charged. Small family style gatherings are allowed with the extra fee and a larger Security Deposit. You must get a pre-approval from us at the time of booking. You must discuss details with us before placing your reservation. NO weddings are allowed.
…
** IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ **
Legal Photo ID may be required: Homeowners Insurance requirement.
Agreement must be signed and returned within 24 hours of booking.
Must place a $200 Security Deposit Hold (enter information through our Encrypted Software Link) -This Off site transaction is authorized by AirBnb. A valid credit card is required as a security deposit hold. The Hold is released swiftly after an approved departure.

Security cameras on property

Exterior Front Door and front porch and Driveway have 24 hour recorded video Camera recording motion protection. NO interior cameras.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Clear language!

Just curious:

@georgygirlofairbnb

• No Bachelor Party groups allowed
• No Groomsmen groups allowed

So bachelorette parties are OK?

@georgygirlofairbnb

All house visitors in excess of your group, must be disclosed in advance.

Maybe it goes without saying but is it 'disclosed and explicitly approved in advance?

You cover it elsewhere but if someone didn’t read down further they might miss it or argue they did.

@georgygirlofairbnb

No weddings are allowed.

I think this is a smart idea. There is a whole line of cases in the U.S. where when something goes wrong at a wedding (or wedding-related event) the wedding party sues and make quite the fuss that after all it was their wedding. Caterers and spaces in the U.S. charge extra for weddings for this very reason.

@georgygirlofairbnb

Golf/Fishing groups = Maximum 5 men allowed.

Does this mean that you can have an unlimited number of women but just five men?
Or no women for fishing of golf groups because . . . because they won’t bait the hooks or they chop up the greens??

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Your description shows that you’ve thought this through, that you’ll host some groups, not others, that there are specific limits. I like it! I would think very helpful to OP or others starting out with such a property.

[georgygirlofairbnb]

I believe I wrote exactly what I mean. I have 13 years of history renting these homes.

1. Bachelorette parties are ok. They are still given rules…no tape on walls. No glitter. There is a huge difference in group behavior between all men and all women. I have never…not once…had a bachelor party where the guys behaved properly and also left the house in good condition. Bachelor parties are not allowed at my properties. Drunk men doing body functions in the front yard does not please neighbors. Drunk men jumping from the deck into the pool is a safety issue. Girls stumbling is not as bad.

2. I do not need to have all visitors explicitly approved in advance. It would be nice, but I am actually flexible. My goal is just to scare away the partiers, and people who dont like rules, not to block every visitor to the house. I appreciate it when they tell me because I dont have worries about too many people then. I dont do anything when they dont…unless the house is left in bad conditon or if a party is taking place. ( Very very rare, and so far, knock on wood, I have never had significant damage of any kind. These tactics are all meant simply to scare away the bad groups, not to micromanage. )

3. Yes, I am ok with women’s groups… up to our max guest number allowed. In my experience, heterosexual women ( and gay women) are all willing to share beds. Heterosexual men dont share a bed. …they crash on couches and floors. Five men are usually appropriately behaved, grill out, sleep in a home with 5 beds, and leave it in pretty good condition. 10 men dont leave a house in good condition and become too loud. In 13 years I have had no womens fishing groups visit here. I have had womens golf groups.

4. I try my dangdest to avoid being discriminatory, and still walk a line of experience, while protecting my homes, my largest investment, and my sanity when on the same property. I welcome LGBT, ethnic groups, and all humans, without questioning or caring about their preferences. I also base my rental decisions on past history and personal experience. I think Airbnb has overreached in many areas. I want to choose wisely about renting my homes, and being a great neighbor and citizen.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Please know no criticism intended.

@georgygirlofairbnb

Drunk men jumping from the deck into the pool is a safety issue

There was just an article about party-goers mis-behaving in Spain, I think it was. It seems that guys like to drink and then on these apartment buildings jump from balcony to balcony. Sometimes naked. What could go wrong?

[Spark]

@Violette

We don’t understand why people can’t clean up after themselves, since they usually balk at a cleaning fee anyway.

Airbnb did some market research last spring, and two things people resented were “addon” cleaning charges and being asked to do “chores.” As hosts we can’t bring the same expectations to Airbnb guests that we do when our in-laws come to stay for a week because our in-laws don’t pay us $3,400 a week to visit, and we don’t have to compete with countless other hosts for the privilege of welcoming the in-laws into our home.

[muddy]

@georgygirlofairbnb

I try my dangdest to avoid being discriminatory,

“Discrimination” has taken on a negative meaning in this day and age, but that isn’t the actual meaning of the word. We discriminate between things every day of our lives, choosing things which work for us, be they quality objects, tools and appliances that won’t wear out and easily break, even if they cost more, or marketing to the type of guests who are a good fit for our listings and us.

When it comes to “discrimination” against people, based on their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc, a better and more accurate word might be “judgmental”- assuming things about people, or disliking them or considering them inferior based on what is an inherent part of who they are, rather than as individual humans.

If experience has shown you how the vast majority of all male groups behave at your str, that’s not discriminatory, as far as I’m concerned. You aren’t saying “no men allowed here”- it’s practicality based on experience. Just like an 18 year old couple might be quiet, sweet, respectful guests a host would welcome back, but that doesn’t mean they’d want a booking from the same 18 year olds and ten of their friends.

[zillacop]

@Violette
Just looked at your listing and the 3 reviews. This is not a good showing for just starting out, 4.33 overall and 3.7 for cleanliness. This should tell you all you need to know about how you’re managing your rental. People will look at these numbers and your bookings will be dead in the water.

It doesn’t have to be this way if you choose to make some changes. There are a lot of long time, dedicated hosts on this site that have offered advice to help you.

[CanadianHost]

Thank you for your post! As I read and related it to our rental I thought “check, check, check”. What you’ve said is spot-on.

Our listing states that we no longer rent to men’s groups, but they may discuss this if they believe they should be an exception - and it does require a phone call. I send them a sheet explaining that they are an exception to our rule and what is expected of them. I think I will also further limit the numbers to those few groups that we accept, like you’ve done.

It isn’t an issue with women like it is with men, regardless of the occasion. For men, I’m sure bachelor party = do whatever we like because rules don’t apply to us.

Why do many men have an urge to pee in the open? Even when they know they’re on camera?

We also state that over-consumption of alcohol is not permitted, as it’s hard on our home when people are no longer in control of themselves.

[muddy]

Another thing about this listing further to all the beds- not only do all those beds create a “crash pad”, hostel-type impression, with no privacy, most of the beds have no bedside tables or reading lamps, have no blankets and only one flat pillow. These are not sleeping arrangements which will attract mature guests.

Also, the photo gallery is incomplete- there are 5 bedrooms, yet only 2 are pictured, and there are no photos of any of the 3 bathrooms.

And while you say here that you go to the rental daily to turn on irrigation and deal with the pool, and do a 20 minute check out walk-through with the guests, nowhere in your listing do you mention any of this, so of course guests have expectations of privacy that are not the reality.

[Violette]

Hi everyone,

Thanks again so much for all of your ideas.

We took over the house from a Belgian who created the business model, bought the 18 beds, cleaned it rather roughly himself in a few hours, and got 5 star ratings. He said everyone who came here claimed it was “paradise… the best week of their lives”. He allowed parties. Why not? It’s the countryside. We don’t have neighbors. And that’s a big part of the attraction. People can be free here in a way they can’t in other places.

For example, at the moment the house is rented by a couple to have a family reunion to celebrate their new baby. The driveway is full of Audis. Their family of all ages is here (including a lady in her 80s), and I just watched a 60 year old nicely dressed French man take a nice nature pee. Maybe that’s why they come to the countryside?

What you all have made clear is that we need to question every aspect of how the ex-proprietor did it and consider all the different options of how we could do it, and what we want to do, what feels good to us.

You all seem to be recommending something much more upmarket. In my view that would involve renovating the rather dated bathrooms, upgrading from his ikea kitchenware and linens, etc.

Another option I suppose would be to continue to allow the party model, but charge a lot for it, switch to a platform allowing big security deposits, and, at minimum, set capacity limits.

For those who can’t find the cleaning info in our listing, it’s in the “guest book”. They get a copy when they arrive and it’s also cut and pasted into that box in the airbnb listing. I have now added it in the “other information” section of the description. I also searched for professional cleaners in our area today. In the local version of craiglist, there are only two ladies in whose covered radius we fall. I’ve contacted them to find out if they want a contract for next summer.

There’s no heat mentioned in the listing because there is zero tourist market here except in summertime, when they certainly don’t need heat.

about pools Europe is less ligitious. The only pool issue is that you have to either have a fence or an alarm, which we do.

Once again, THANK YOU for all your feedback, thoughts, and counsel.

[muddy]

@CanadianHost

For men, I’m sure bachelor party = do whatever we like because rules don’t apply to us.

I wouldn’t assume it’s because they think rules don’t apply to them, it’s more that men tend to have a different relationship with their surroundings and different awareness re cleanliness than women do (and of course there are individual exceptions to this).

My daughter was telling me how she told her husband they needed to do a deep cleaning of the house they had been renting and living in for 2 years, and where they still reside. They are both basically clean and tidy, the place never looks like a dirty mess, so he couldn’t understand why they needed to do this and grumbled about it the whole time they were working on it, even though the depths of the cupboards and so on, were obviously filthy.

And both she and my older daughter told me their husbands could sleep on the same sheets for months without ever thinking of changing them, or sleep with their face directly on a couch that lord knows how many people, dogs, etc, have sat or slept on.

[muddy]

@Violette

For those who can’t find the cleaning info in our listing, it’s in the “guest book”. They get a copy when they arrive and it’s also cut and pasted into that box in the airbnb listing. I have now added it in the “other information” section of the description.

You should also reiterate cleaning expectations (which should not be of the level you currently expect) in a message to guests when they first book or send a request, within the free cancellation period, so they can cancel if not willing to comply. Guests do not necessarily read through all the listing info,so any possible deal-breakers are best reiterated when guests book.

In-house or online guest books normally consist of instructions on how to operate things in the house, where to find things, local emergency numbers and local attractions, shopping, services, etc, and reminders about the check- out instructions, but not long lists of expectations that are a surprise.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

@Violette

For those who can’t find the cleaning info in our listing, it’s in the “guest book”. They get a copy when they arrive and it’s also cut and pasted into that box in the airbnb listing. I have now added it in the “other information” section of the description.

I suppose you’re referring to this:

You need to add more to this, if for no reason other than a guest might say they left the place with their expectations of cleanliness. The detail in your guest book needs to be in the listing so they are not surprised when they arrive.

You shouldn’t insist on – or even request – anything that is not spelled out in the listing. And the listing needs to spell everything out. Maybe that’s the biggest takeaway for you.

@Violette

We took over the house from a Belgian who created the business model,

Do you have a copy of that listing, and the communications?

Maybe the Belgian’s ‘secret sauce’ was in those? Or maybe the Belgian and its guests didn’t mind the cleanliness issues – it’s all in expectations that are set out in the listing and the follow-up communications (e.g., @muddy’s confirmation message).

@Violette

You all seem to be recommending something much more upmarket.

Not really. We just thought that you could charge more, maybe much more, with even fewer people, and have the funds/time for the cleanliness that you wanted.

Yes, we’d add a few pillows and side tables, some pictures on the wall, finishing touches really.

[I’d also advocate for some safety features like pool rules, pool depth markers, safety ring – for the sake of safety itself.]

And several of us would like to see all the bedrooms and features of the house (e.g., ping pong table, hot tub) with the pictures captioned.

More prominent and explicit clarity that you live on the premises and will need to be on premises for maintenance during the stay (I know you say you live in the barn but it could be missed, and guests need to know upfront that you’ll be in the yard for the landscaping and pool/hot tub maintenance, with more detail the better).

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Bonne chance in your venture, Violet – Please check in now and then on what/how you’ve decided to change and how it’s working!

[Rolf]

@CanadianHost

they may discuss this if they believe they should be an exception - and it does require a phone call

All discussions should be through the app messaging.

[CanadianHost]

Only about one-quarter of my bookings are through Airbnb. I believe it benefits us to have a personal discussion where I can relay how important it is to us that noise rules are followed. It’s the next best things to in-person.

[Violette]

Just a little bit of clarification. Because of the previous owner claimed to have been able to clean the house in one day, we thought we could too and that’s how we started the season. By accident we did have a 2 day gap between the first and second bookings, and we realized that even in 2 days we couldn’t do it. So we wrote a message to all of the rest of the guests of the season, explaining that the rest of the turnovers were same-day turnovers, and that with only the two of us, cleaning the house in that short period was simply impossible, and there are no professional cleaners available in the area. We explained that with lots of people, they could do it in a couple of hours, and that each group was depending on the others to prepare the house. All the guests responded that they understood. Some of them had requested cleaning service, and we refunded this money. Also we gave them a bonus to thank them for their understanding. We changed the check-out time from 0900 to 1100 and the check-in time from 1600 to 1400.

So despite what you found or didn’t find in the listing (which I’ve been working on updating for next year) we did communicate this well in advance.

[KKC]

@Violette

I just watched a 60 year old nicely dressed French man take a nice nature pee. Maybe that’s why they come to the countryside?

I’ve only been in France 3 times but I didn’t have the impression that French gentlemen have any hestitation to pee anywhere outside, a street, alleyway, between parked cars… despite having nice clean pay toilets around the city.

@Violette

In my view that would involve renovating the rather dated bathrooms, upgrading from his ikea kitchenware and linens, etc.

Design and decor is not my strong suit but I think you can go with a french country, old country feel that is both kind of upscale but not modern. I can picture what I mean and I think you have the start of it. I agree with others that beds lined up in a room like a hostel or a prison, especially with those barren walls, needs rethinking.

[Chris]

@Violette

Advice?

Get help!!

What you want is impossible/will never happen.

I do not know what your cleaning fee is, but for a size like that I guess it’s about 24 hours, so your cleaning fee should be around €500.

Then go look for people that help you clean. It’s impossible that there is no one around, there are always people that want to earn a bit of extra money.

Also always have spares. Once a season we buy a few boxes of cheap plates, glasses, wineglasses, lightbulbs, kitchen knifes, scissors etc etc.

This stuff breaks, gets lost or gets taken, it’s a fact, accept it, and move on.

[dpfromva]

I looked at Superhost and other listings in Montebernard, and there is a lot of competition, similar large country houses but with nicely appointed bedrooms, at or below your price point, that don’t (in a final sentence that guests will not read) expect the guests to transform into char ladies at the end of the visit.

The hostel-style BRs and high guest capacity number hit a jarring note that is inconsistent with the amenities and country chic aspects of your property. Similar to the photo of the beautiful old wooden staircase with the silver lame stilettos – makes me think one of the entertainers for the bachelor party forgot her shoes!

You should definitively go one style or the other to end the visual confusion and target your market.

I can see a “cram-em-in-cheap” niche in your market, which the the prior host tapped or attempted to tap. Don’t discount that he may have exaggerated his profits as a sale point – did you see financials for his rental business?

So that’s a guest- and party-proof hostel style where you don’t expect guests to care for the property, and that is easily cleaned by you or hired help – tile that can be mopped down, skip the floral arrangements, use all acrylic and melamine tableware, cheap decor and supplies, etc.

Or a lovely country house for mature and responsible large family and other groups.

Your aesthetic per your posting, and the fittings already in the house, point to the latter. Again, be aware you appear to have a lot of competition for that guest demographic.

I don’t know your market, but I would consider putting king beds in 2 BRs, 1 or 2 queens in 2 other BRs, and trundle plus double in a BR for children. Put tour and restaurant recommendations, and possibly a local food basket, in the entry to incentivize guests to think about spending time outside the house, visiting markets, museums, gardens, etc. Include sufficient turnover time to clean. A guest who walks in and sees poor cleaning will not appreciate positive aspects of the property.

I would say raise your rates to cover the above, but you already seem near the top of the market. Go over financials and budget to confirm you have a viable business model.

Another source of income is that you are set up for events, don’t know what other platforms you use but Airbnb may not be the best fit with their party bans to monetize that. Do you have your own website?