Large groups for a week: typical problems of damage and uncleanliness: any advice?

[Violette]

Ok, I hear you that you think cleaning to the standard for next guests is not reasonable. I didn’t know that at all. I’ve been using airbnb since it really did mean staying in people’s own homes.

Every time I’ve stayed in an airbnb that DID NOT have a required cleaning fee, I understood that I had to leave it exactly how I found it, including cleaning the bathroom, kitchen, etc. The only thing I didn’t do was the laundry and last emptying of the dishwasher.

But what I’m hearing from you all is that the basic airbnb model is turning more into a hotel model where you basically pay a high price in order to trash the place and that’s all built into the pricing. That change may be because of airbnb getting more commercial, so guests don’t even know that they are staying in someone’s home, or that it has that history.

[zillacop]

@Violette

Every time I’ve stayed in an airbnb that DID NOT have a required cleaning fee, I understood that I had to leave it exactly how I found it, including cleaning the bathroom, kitchen, etc. The only thing I didn’t do was the laundry and last emptying of the dishwasher.

I started hosting and being an Airbnb guest in 2015. I hosted in a separate part of my house and it was never required or expected by me or any hosts that they should clean bathrooms/kitchens so it would be ready for the next party. You left things neat but it was the hosts responsibility to clean for the next guests. That’s why people charge cleaning fees or boosted their rates.

[jaquo]

@Violette

an airbnb that DID NOT have a required cleaning fee,

Like others here, I’ve been using Airbnb for several years both as a host and as a guest.

And during all that time I have considered the cleaning fee the ‘preparation fee’.

Fresh flowers, superb cleanliness, fluffy towels and bathrobes, welcome bottle of wine, up-to-date magazines, fresh fruit, good quality toiletries etc. are what the preparation fee is for.

I cohost for a neighbour with an identical apartment to one of my own and he doesn’t want to be bothered with those extras. He gets far fewer bookings than we do and our guests appreciate extras as our two apartments are back-to-back year-round.

Guests are willing to pay for quality and these days much of our business is from repeat guests or referrals. I agree with @zillacop that your prices might be the reason you attract such slobby guests.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

@Violette

Ok, I hear you that you think cleaning to the standard for next guests is not reasonable.

Roger that.

@Violette

that DID NOT have a required cleaning fee, I understood that . . .

Whether there’s a cleaning fee the guests are expected to follow Airbnb’s ground rules for guests and the house rules. These require as a minimum that things are in their original position and garbage is not littered about. Some Hosts build in the cleaning fee in their rates; others don’t. Regardless, guests aren’t typically required to clean, nor given permission to ‘trash’ the place.

@Violette

where you basically pay a high price in order to trash the place

No.

Some (very few) guests misunderstand that because they’re paying for cleaning (where a cleaning fee is separately stated) that that gives them permission to be boorish; it does not. Guests need to follow Airbnb ground rules and house rules.

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This idea of the guests cleaning is really bonkers.

The guests are unlikely to clean well. If I’m a guest and I see that it hasn’t been cleaned well (by the last guest), why am I held to a higher standard?

It’s the Host’s responsibility to make sure that the property is clean. As you know there is no way to make sure that the guests cleaned it well without checking everything, for which there’s not time. A guest could complain to Airbnb that you are not fulfilling your Host’s duty of cleanliness and mark you down for that.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

There’s something also at play here.

When your guests arrive the place cannot possibly be truly clean.

They’ll notice that.

And a place that’s not truly clean to start begets a dirtier place.

It just does. It’s human nature.

They’ll SEE that the place is not truly clean – which, please don’t take this the wrong way – is disrespectful to the guests. They’ll follow suit and be resentful when you expect them to leave it better than what they received. Plus, as guests, they shouldn’t be expected to ‘clean’ at all.

There’s so much to a proper cleaning job. Using the right cleaning solutions, spraying the rag first not the mirrors, cleaning the dishwasher filter, cleaning that gasket in the sink, getting into the corners/under the bed/furniture, checking the laundry for stains, making the beds the right way, cleaning the sheets and the duvet cover and the mattress pad, using the right temperature in the wash, on and on.

You mention a concern that if you tell them that they don’t need to clean that they’ll leave it even dirtier. You need to find the right words – I know it isn’t easy though most of us get it to work – so that they won’t feel permission to trash it while not feeling that they need to become a housecleaner.

SIDE NOTE: Not everyone is a good cleaner. The Host will not let me clean, says I’m ‘blind.’

This really happened:

Host: Did you clean THAT?

Me: What?

Host: THERE. Did you clean that?

Me: What are you talking about?

Host (pointing): THERE!

Me: Where?

Host: You don’t see that??

Me: What? Here?

Host: Yes, there.

Me: What? I don’t see anything.

Host: Kills herself (well, thought about it but then thought killing me might be the thing to do; we settled on I don’t clean)

[Violette]

This is all totally fascinating. I really appreciate all the engagement.

FIrst I find it fascinating that it’s strange to expect people to clean up after themselves.

And in fact the ground rules, kindly posted by HostAirbnbVRBO, say “treat your host’s home like your own”. At home, you clean up after yourself, you don’t expect someone else to do it.

Furthermore “cleaning fees set by Hosts are only meant to cover the cost of standard cleaning between reservations (laundry, vacuuming, etc.)”. So by inference if a Host does NOT add a fee, then this “standard cleaning” is to be done by guests. Obviously laundry is impossible, but according to this statement, vacuuming and its ilk are reasonable.

Going on to the next screenshot, airbnb’s definition of “a high standard of cleanliness” is pretty lax: “free of extensive dust…dirty dishes…”

JUST to clarify, we have been following checkout with a couple of hours of follow-up cleaning, as needed.

Also people seem to be assuming that this is a cheap rental and that’s why it’s attracting “bad” clientele. After service fees, the guests are paying about 3400/week and that’s at the higher end of such offerings in this area.

I don’t think the amount of money people are willing to pay is a measure of their behavior, in fact it could be inversely related. We notice that the “rich kids” who come are more disregarding and seem to have much less competence.

[zillacop]

I’ve never had a cleaning fee and I assumed my guests would be tidy, but my guests were not responsible for turnover. That is on the host.

Was just looking at some rentals in the south of France where it’s not uncommon to have space for up to 16-20 people. Your price of $3400 per week for that many is definitely not on the high end and I’d say pretty inexpensive for that many.

[muddy]

@Violette

But what I’m hearing from you all is that the basic airbnb model is turning more into a hotel model where you basically pay a high price in order to trash the place and that’s all built into the pricing.

What??? Your unrealistic ideas continue. I have been hosting since 2016, and while I only host one guest at a time in a private room, I do not charge a high price and I have never had any guest “trash the place”, nor is that the common experience of most hosts. The majority of guests are respectful and leave a place reasonably clean and tidy.

But expecting that a group of 20 people, including children, can stay somewhere in holiday mode for a week and not make a mess, break some glasses, or cause other minor damage, stain sheets and towels, and then clean the place to professional standards makes no sense.

It is your hosting model that’s the problem, not the guests- too many people, no cleaning days break between groups, unrealistic expectations.

[Violette]

Jaquo mentioned “extras”. I was really attracted to doing this kind of thing, making the house beautiful for people. Since people come here to spend time outside, I have focused on flowers for the terraces, where people eat and hang out. I put in a whole collection of fuscias in hanging pots, fuscias being special and delightful flowers. The guests take down the pots and shove them into a corner. So I’m not sure “extras” are the draw here. The main draw is the swimming pool and the “privacy” afforded by the countryside. Which I think means being able to play music, use the pool at night (which you can’t do at a resort)…

Part of what I feel I need to understand, that is totally foreign to me is “holidaying” mode. As an entrepreneur, I only travel for work and try to fit in some pleasure, but I have never in my life gone on a “holiday” where the agenda was to do nothing but indulge for days on end. It seems that a great majority of people who do that, regardless of their class position or level of education, want to eat junk food, listen to music, and drink. To wit, one of the groups who came were a cohort of young medical doctors! Their behavior “on holiday” was indistinguishable from a group of mid-20s kids. We have no problem with loud music and naked pool parties, we just think people should be willing to clean up after themselves.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

@Violette

fascinating that it’s strange to expect people to clean up after themselves.

Well, cleaning up after yourself is different than cleaning.

So, you clean off toothpaste that dropped in the bathroom sink, clean off dishes you used, clean up a big spill in the refrigerator.

But you don’t clean the bathroom sink, or scrub the kitchen sink, or clean off the little spills in the refrigerator. The cleaner does those things.

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@Violette

in fact the ground rules, kindly posted by HostAirbnbVRBO, say “treat your host’s home like your own”.

Yeah, we’ve talked about this one here.

Some people are slobs at home, and this gives them permission to do it at your place too. But this falls in the category of ‘you know what we mean’. Also, the casual home standard that a guest is held to is different from a commercial standard that a Host is held to.

@Violette

At home, you clean up after yourself, you don’t expect someone else to do it.

LOL. Have you seem any sitcoms? Read about the women’s movement here in the U.S.? Look at fairplaylife.. Unfortunately too many people look to their wife to do this. But her position is ‘I’m on vacation!’ Unfair.

@Violette

So by inference if a Host does NOT add a fee, then this “standard cleaning” is to be done by guests.

OK, now you’re just funnin’ with us. This is the disconnect for you; it’s a corollary to “I’m paying for a cleaning fee and so I can trash the place.” So, ‘No’ and ‘No’. Guests always pay for cleaning; they pay for everything (@lisanddavid ). Some Hosts build the cleaning fee into their rates; some don’t. So it’s about transparency not whether the guests are paying.

@Violette

airbnb’s definition of "a high standard of cleanliness is pretty lax: “free of extensive dust…dirty dishes…”

I agree. It really is hard to be specific without being tedious or unrealistic. Some short-term rentals are cabins; some are ‘regular’ homes; some are estates. There is some weasel language here; I think it’s unavoidable. The reviews are the intended mechanism for what’s appropriate. Look here at @Lynick4442 's post.

Here’s what Airbnb asks (notice what can be highlighted):

@Violette

After service fees, the guests are paying about 3400/week and that’s at the higher end of such offerings in this area.

That doesn’t sound like so much,

Here, in Worcester MA, with additional guest fees of $30/person after two guests, we’d get (and this is top end for the area) about $2,500 for a week’s summer stay for six people in a 1300 sq ft. home, with a pool and a nice back yard on a regular 1/3 acre lot. [If we could comfortably host 12 that would be another $1,300 in additional guest fees, for $3,800 total.] I would have thought you could get a lot more. Maybe you might experiment with different pricing. I don’t know if AirDNA [they say worldwide, includes Toulouse] or PriceLabs works in your area.

@Violette

I don’t think the amount of money people are willing to pay is a measure of their behavior, in fact it could be inversely related.

Many people anecdotally believe that there is a relationship (rich kids aside). But, at the least, with a security deposit and written contract in place (e.g., OwnerRez) and a super clean place to start, I think you’d find different behavior. Intuitively, I think you need to charge more to either attract a different clientele or afford the cleanup that’s necessary.

@muddy

You could post the link to your listing here- I suspect the wording is such that it attracts big party groups, not quiet family holidays.

Yeah,. Some listings invite this. Others ‘lay down the law’ and you kind of know that they’re not going to put up with anything. Search for posts by @dmartin336 here (I gave a link earlier). When you can cancel without refund mid-stay that gets people’s attention, or should. [Find out ahead of time your legal rights and whether local police would support you.]

[muddy]

@Violette

Part of what I feel I need to understand, that is totally foreign to me is “holidaying” mode. As an entrepreneur, I only travel for work and try to fit in some pleasure, but I have never in my life gone on a “holiday” where the agenda was to do nothing but indulge for days on end.

Do you travel for work with 15 other people? You have a listing for 16-20 people with a pool and you didn’t expect people to book it for vacations?

You could post the link to your listing here- I suspect the wording is such that it attracts big party groups, not quiet family holidays.

And of course “rich kids” make a mess and don’t understand cleaning up after themselves- they are accustomed to having cleaners who do that. Why would you think they know how to clean? Intensive cleaning is a skill, like any other occupation.

@Violette

So by inference if a Host does NOT add a fee, then this “standard cleaning” is to be done by guests.

No. Many hosts do not charge a cleaning fee-I don’t- it is covered bythe nightly price. I certainly don’t expect my guests to vacuum, wash floors, clean the bathroom, wash windows, clean the baseboards, etc. That’s my job.
And as far as guests treating the place like their own, people don’t normally clean their own houses to a standard that a paying guest coming in would expect to find.

[Violette]

I would appreciate feedback on the listing!
https://airbnb.com/h/villacastella

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Well, it looks gorgeous!

I’ll look at it more later but there is NOTHING about your cleaning requirements.

NO WONDER guests go nuts when you spring this last-minute tour on them.

I don’t know how litigious France is. Here in the U.S., what with the pool and the bicycles – but even without – many here would recommend your own commercial liability insurance.

No additional guest fee? I know many suggest that (no additional guest fee), to price in the nightly rate what the price would be fully booked for x guests. But is there a maximum? You mention table service for 40. Do you allow events, like a wedding? How do you price for that? Or could I just have a wedding party here and not pay extra? I would not permit THAT.

Nothing about you living on site. Nothing about needing access for pool and landscaping maintenance ( try to establish a schedule, if possible, like Monday mornings, or mornings before noon (more specific if you can be). Need to fix.

I’d consider linked listings with some bedrooms locked (so you needn’t clean them) depending on how many guests there are. You say ‘16+’ guests, but aren’t the beds enough for only 16 maximum?

With table service for 40 (all available?) if a group of six book they might think that there are enough dishes for six days without washing any? Something needs to be stated about cleaning – not as much as you’d like – but they need to clean the dishes. Also, no glass by the pool.

Do you have plastic tumblers for the pool? Are there depth markers for the pool (both sides)? A life preserver? No pool rules? Nothing about diving? Nothing about diving in the shallow end? See here.

No heating?

More later.

[zillacop]

In your description of the property, it’s a good idea to list that you live on the property. You should also disclose that you will be around checking/watering plants, monitoring the pool.
If privacy is what people are after they need to know these things. And, another reason to have some breaks between guests.
When I hosted a private apartment connected to my house, I tried not to be outside doing yard work, watering when the guests were outside. They knew I lived there, but I tried to give them space.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

@Violette

Cleaning is in house rules,

This is what I saw, and I saw nothing about cleaning in the rules section:

[Rolf]

@Violette

And in fact the ground rules, kindly posted by HostAirbnbVRBO, say “treat your host’s home like your own”. At home, you clean up after yourself, you don’t expect someone else to do it.

Your guests are doing that. The way they leave your house is they way they live. No, they might not ‘clean up after themselves’ at home.

Also, your inference that by omission, airbnb is saying that

@Violette

this “standard cleaning” is to be done by guests.

No, it means that cleaning fees cover standard cleaning, such as everything needed to put the place back into the condition that the host is selling.

I honestly believe that you are targeted by guest groups that see your ‘concepts’ about cleaning etc and say to themselves ‘this host is clueless and so we can take advantage’.

[Spark]

@Violette

Summer is short and people want to have a full week, so we can’t really put days between the reservations.

Double your weekly rate, and only rent it every second week.
(Yes – the high price will scare away some guests… but you only need half as many)

[Ritz3]

3400 a week divided by 20 guests is only 170 for a week stay. I’m sure you’re attracting folks in their 20s to 30s who probably never even cleaned their bedrooms when living at home. Also cleaning after oneself is different than a deep cleaning.

They might be cleaning after themselves but that’s not a deep cleaning. I can’t even imagine what the bathroom would look like after 20 guests have stayed for a week and the kitchen must be a sticky mess.

Just give it a try; lower the number of guests, raise your price and hire a cleaning team to deep clean between guests. See if you notice an improvement. If not, try something different. It might be a trial and error situation until you find what works best for you.

[muddy]

@Violette You advertise for events, that you have table service and seating for 40, you expect 16- 40 people to share 3 bathrooms, charge the equivalent of $24/per person/night and do not mention that you live on the property. You have created a party magnet listing.

You have 5 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms. Why have you crammed beds for up to 20 in?
I suggest you remove all the beds other than enough to sleep 2 guests in each bedroom (10 guests max), and leave only enough tables, chairs, bedding, towels and dishes for 10. Remove words like “events” from your listing.

And why do you need to only accept week-long bookings? There must be demand for less than 1week bookings. Cut your minimum stay length down to 2 or 3 nights, and leave a day between bookings for you to do a thorough cleaning.

[georgygirlofairbnb]

Since I live on site, like you do, I am more firm than you are. - 1. I use OwnerRez and also require a Security Deposit Hold and a contract. - 2. I am absolutely clear that I live on site, and I have a list of groups I will not accept. - 3. I have an limit on the number of kids I allow… a maximum of xxx. -4. I encourage tourist groups, couples and womens groups. -5. I have a minimum age of 30 to rent. -6. I limit the number of guests. I don’t know how large your home / chalet is, but perhaps you are allowing too many people. -7. find professional cleaners…one way or another, or clean yourself. We turn a 5 bedroom house in a day…perfectly. How big is this house? In summary, I would not have even accepted your groups…a family with 8 kids is a no no. Groups of 20 years old is a no no. Kegs of beer and partying outside with audio speakers is a no no. There are quiets hours set and made clear. I think you are probably allowing anyone to book without deciding who is best suited to the house, and you are not setting rules and parameters. Additionally, the signed contract lists the number of adults, kids, and toddlers / infants. It lists the number of vehicles. I lists the number of dogs. This is all designed to force honesty and scare away the partiers. Does it work?..somewhat…nothing is perfect, and they still try to sneak…but it sure helps a bunch.