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Yes, judging from discussions in the net, it seems many Romanis are both integrated into Western communities, and either keep a low profile, or have simply disassociated themselves from their Romani identity, because of prejudice. And unlike some ethnic groups e.g. the (Zoroastrian) Parsis of Bombay, there is no prohibition against marrying outside the group.
That does mean that it’s difficult to impossible to determine the number of Romanis that are present in a society.
There’s a distinction that’s not being made here that’s vital to understand the phenomenon in Scandinavia, Britain and other western European countries.
The traditional ‘gypsies’ in these places, who’d settled here centuries ago, have either fully or partially integrated, and insofar as I know, do not encounter explicit discrimination in our times.
And as I said, there are a few famous people that’ve come from this background - I mentioned Charlie Chaplin.
The more delinquently inclined types the ‘racists’ on this forum are talking about above are actually Romani immigrants from Eastern European countries such as Romania who have come to the West using the EU’s unchecked-movement-for-all-whether-workers-or-criminals policy.
I think this creates problems on two levels. Firstly, these EE societies have different, dare-I-say lower, standards in areas such as crime, rule of law, property rights, cultural diversity, etc. compared to the West.
On top of that, the Romani traditionally in these parts are less integrated into those societies compared to in the West – perhaps because of those lower standards.
So it’s a double whammy. And the sudden influx of these people into Western Europe in the last decade or so – it’s hard not to notice that there’s a Romani beggar sitting by a rubbish bin every 500 yards in some inner city areas in Britain – has created problems.
Denying we have these issues as part of a complex problem by branding anyone who raises any of these as racists will not lead us to a solution.
The whole point @Astaire was that the distinction was not being made. The comment was that 99% of Romani women are prostitutes, beggars and thieves. This sort of blanket demonisation of a people, any people is unacceptable.
I work with a number of communities in the UK including long established traveller and Roma communities and they certainly do continue to face explicit discrimination here in the UK and in Europe as evidenced by the BBC story I linked you to. And from first hand experiences of travellers outlined in this article.
They face discrimination and bullying at school, face discrimination in employment and social situations, are asked to leave hotels and restaurants etc.
You need to be clear who you are talking about. 1. Are you talking about Roma/gypsies (who come from across Europe, Russia, Turkey etc or are you 2. talking about immigrants from Romania/eastern Europe @Astaire. You are using the two interchangeably and they are not.
Having travelled to and around Romania - have you? I can tell you I felt safe, didn’t experience higher levels of crime etc. I was invited into beautiful homes, treated to excellent hospitality and cooked amazing meals
Nor is it true to say Romani are less integrated because they have, according to you ‘lower standards’. They are less integrated like many cultures in the UK because of prejudice and discrimination, they have their own language and traditions and are a travelling people who don’t live within established communities.
No-one is denying we have a problem with petty crime and begging in our cities and larger towns. It is not just people from ‘Romani’ communities who beg. Most of the people I see (and I work with street homeless) are most definitely not Romani, although some are from various parts of Eastern Europe. The vast majority are former service men, those with mental health issues, young people and those from the UK who have alcohol and substance misuse issues.
Using emotive Daily Mail type words like ‘influx’ is not helpful.
Branding everyone involved in petty crime and prostitution in Europe as a Romani and creating more fear and prejudice will not lead us to a solution.
I think it’s better to close the topic.
To me gypsy (traveller) is not the same as Roma (Romani). I make the separation that way, based on the meaning of the words in Dutch. It may be different in other languages.
Apart from that it’s a chicken or egg discussion that applies to several immigrant groups (new or historic). There is prejudice and discrimination. There is a lack of integration. Unwillingness? There is a disproportionally high representation in crime statistics. Culture or less chances in life? What came first? Are did it all come together?
One extreme of the spectrum will say it’s all the fault of the receiving society. You appear more inclined that way. The other extreme will say it’s all the fault of the immigrants. I find myself in the middle and I believe that, instead of always politically correct blinding ourselves, it’s better to call the problems by there name, stop the endless who’s-at-fault discussions (left-right), be pragmatic and look for solutions.
@Astaire Wonderfully balanced post! 
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Hi @GutHend
Nowhere have I said it’s all the fault of the receiving society.
If people carry out criminal acts then they should be punished.
What isn’t acceptable to me is to state as a fact that ‘99,99 % of Romanian women staying in Scandinavia are beggars, prostitutes or some kind of criminals’ when this has no basis in fact.
Anyway we have strayed far from @sylvainbg original post, so I will comment no more on this subject here. @sylvainbg I do hope everything worked out for you.
This is a very important point.
The more an immigrant group finds itself at odds with or different from the society they chose to immigrate to the more likely they’re to isolate themselves and the more likely the native population is to view them suspiciously.
There has to be an effort on both sides, the incoming and the native populations to understand the other side and adjust.
But I’m likely to say that the onus on the immigrant is a bit higher, because they chose to come to the new place. And I admit it’s not easy.
I think many Western European societies have gone to great lengths to accommodate differences and diversity, so to make blanket claims that it all boils down to the native population’s ‘prejudice and discrimination’ is one-sided.
Thanks @GutHend, you’ve expanded very well on the point I was trying to make.
I honestly don’t know but maybe “Romani criminal gangs”? The emphasis being on the criminal element within a nationality or community rather than assuming that all people from said place/origin are bad (not saying you implied that btw).
We are comfortable talking about high-level organised crime (Italian mafia, Albanian mafia, Russian mafia, Columbian drug mafia, Chinese Triads etc) and referring to country/ethnicity. Most criminal gangs do have shared nationality/ethnicity - it makes them more effective. But we don’t assume that all Italians are going to leave the severed head of a horse in your bed. Or that everyone from Columbia is going to arrive with a suitcase full of cocaine.
But the Romani gangs are low-level criminals and don’t have any of that “kudos”. They operate entirely outwith main society and have been despised and hounded for a very very long time. Sure, the whole community may protect them but that doesn’t mean all of them are beggars and prostitutes.
Mmh, I know this is stretching it but… Global corporations? They ravage countries and their populations to make money. Pan handling and pick pocketing by another name.
I’m from Italy and offended that you would even link my people to organized crime. Obviously, you are a racist.
(clearly I’m kidding)
I was not saying every Romani is a thief, I was saying there are organized crime gangs of Romani that come into larger European cities during the summer to cause havoc.
No they couldn’t @Stuart_Ingram.
That’s like staying European people should be called African 
Romani (and there are lots of different sorts) some of which originally came from India , some of which didn’t are a distinct race. Similarly to the Jewish people, who come from lots of different countries but share a race.
Then you have travellers. Here a lot of our travellers come from Ireland, where they were called tinkers and itinerants when I was growing up.
In racial terms, they could be termed ‘Asian’ or ‘Indo-Aryan’ - predominantly - as there’s been some inevitable but minor local intermingling with Europeans since they arrived.
However, in ethnic terms, they must be seen as a European ethnicity, not Asian - a 1000 years is good enough for that? They have no memory of the Asian/Indian past any more than, say Celtic peoples in, say Ireland, have any memory of their time in Anatolia (the Galatians of the Bible.)
But equating your query to be tantamount to saying European people should be called African is a stretch.
Most European (and Indian) cultural identities had formed a 1000 years ago, but this African analogy goes back to tens of thousands of years, if I remember before language and writing. No comparison.
It’s not irony, it’s sarcasm.
Really @EllenN
Using or characterised by irony:
synonyms: sarcastic · sardonic · dry · caustic · sharp · stinging · scathing · acerbic · acid · bitter · trenchant · mordant · cynical · mocking · satirical · scoffing
My dear, dear Indian friend living in the US gets very upset when there is no check box for Southeast Asian or Indian, so she just checks Asian bc she refuses to check ‘non hispanic other’
No. Neither sex workers nor sex work is illegal in Sweden.
Buying sex is illegal. Selling sex is fine.
The logic being that the “victim” should always be able to get help from police or social services, without risk of further abuse or punishment from the legal system. (I put quotation marks around “victim” because I personally feel iffy about defining sex workers as victims. That said; the system - known as “The Swedish Model” if you want to read more - has been in place for 18 years and seems to have had largely positive outcomes.)
I’m trying to imagine the picture on the front page when they published that document called The Swedish Model!
