Large groups for a week: typical problems of damage and uncleanliness: any advice?

[muddy]

@Violette

But what I’m hearing from you all is that the basic airbnb model is turning more into a hotel model where you basically pay a high price in order to trash the place and that’s all built into the pricing.

What??? Your unrealistic ideas continue. I have been hosting since 2016, and while I only host one guest at a time in a private room, I do not charge a high price and I have never had any guest “trash the place”, nor is that the common experience of most hosts. The majority of guests are respectful and leave a place reasonably clean and tidy.

But expecting that a group of 20 people, including children, can stay somewhere in holiday mode for a week and not make a mess, break some glasses, or cause other minor damage, stain sheets and towels, and then clean the place to professional standards makes no sense.

It is your hosting model that’s the problem, not the guests- too many people, no cleaning days break between groups, unrealistic expectations.

[Violette]

Jaquo mentioned “extras”. I was really attracted to doing this kind of thing, making the house beautiful for people. Since people come here to spend time outside, I have focused on flowers for the terraces, where people eat and hang out. I put in a whole collection of fuscias in hanging pots, fuscias being special and delightful flowers. The guests take down the pots and shove them into a corner. So I’m not sure “extras” are the draw here. The main draw is the swimming pool and the “privacy” afforded by the countryside. Which I think means being able to play music, use the pool at night (which you can’t do at a resort)…

Part of what I feel I need to understand, that is totally foreign to me is “holidaying” mode. As an entrepreneur, I only travel for work and try to fit in some pleasure, but I have never in my life gone on a “holiday” where the agenda was to do nothing but indulge for days on end. It seems that a great majority of people who do that, regardless of their class position or level of education, want to eat junk food, listen to music, and drink. To wit, one of the groups who came were a cohort of young medical doctors! Their behavior “on holiday” was indistinguishable from a group of mid-20s kids. We have no problem with loud music and naked pool parties, we just think people should be willing to clean up after themselves.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

@Violette

fascinating that it’s strange to expect people to clean up after themselves.

Well, cleaning up after yourself is different than cleaning.

So, you clean off toothpaste that dropped in the bathroom sink, clean off dishes you used, clean up a big spill in the refrigerator.

But you don’t clean the bathroom sink, or scrub the kitchen sink, or clean off the little spills in the refrigerator. The cleaner does those things.

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@Violette

in fact the ground rules, kindly posted by HostAirbnbVRBO, say “treat your host’s home like your own”.

Yeah, we’ve talked about this one here.

Some people are slobs at home, and this gives them permission to do it at your place too. But this falls in the category of ‘you know what we mean’. Also, the casual home standard that a guest is held to is different from a commercial standard that a Host is held to.

@Violette

At home, you clean up after yourself, you don’t expect someone else to do it.

LOL. Have you seem any sitcoms? Read about the women’s movement here in the U.S.? Look at fairplaylife.. Unfortunately too many people look to their wife to do this. But her position is ‘I’m on vacation!’ Unfair.

@Violette

So by inference if a Host does NOT add a fee, then this “standard cleaning” is to be done by guests.

OK, now you’re just funnin’ with us. This is the disconnect for you; it’s a corollary to “I’m paying for a cleaning fee and so I can trash the place.” So, ‘No’ and ‘No’. Guests always pay for cleaning; they pay for everything (@lisanddavid ). Some Hosts build the cleaning fee into their rates; some don’t. So it’s about transparency not whether the guests are paying.

@Violette

airbnb’s definition of "a high standard of cleanliness is pretty lax: “free of extensive dust…dirty dishes…”

I agree. It really is hard to be specific without being tedious or unrealistic. Some short-term rentals are cabins; some are ‘regular’ homes; some are estates. There is some weasel language here; I think it’s unavoidable. The reviews are the intended mechanism for what’s appropriate. Look here at @Lynick4442 's post.

Here’s what Airbnb asks (notice what can be highlighted):

@Violette

After service fees, the guests are paying about 3400/week and that’s at the higher end of such offerings in this area.

That doesn’t sound like so much,

Here, in Worcester MA, with additional guest fees of $30/person after two guests, we’d get (and this is top end for the area) about $2,500 for a week’s summer stay for six people in a 1300 sq ft. home, with a pool and a nice back yard on a regular 1/3 acre lot. [If we could comfortably host 12 that would be another $1,300 in additional guest fees, for $3,800 total.] I would have thought you could get a lot more. Maybe you might experiment with different pricing. I don’t know if AirDNA [they say worldwide, includes Toulouse] or PriceLabs works in your area.

@Violette

I don’t think the amount of money people are willing to pay is a measure of their behavior, in fact it could be inversely related.

Many people anecdotally believe that there is a relationship (rich kids aside). But, at the least, with a security deposit and written contract in place (e.g., OwnerRez) and a super clean place to start, I think you’d find different behavior. Intuitively, I think you need to charge more to either attract a different clientele or afford the cleanup that’s necessary.

@muddy

You could post the link to your listing here- I suspect the wording is such that it attracts big party groups, not quiet family holidays.

Yeah,. Some listings invite this. Others ‘lay down the law’ and you kind of know that they’re not going to put up with anything. Search for posts by @dmartin336 here (I gave a link earlier). When you can cancel without refund mid-stay that gets people’s attention, or should. [Find out ahead of time your legal rights and whether local police would support you.]

[muddy]

@Violette

Part of what I feel I need to understand, that is totally foreign to me is “holidaying” mode. As an entrepreneur, I only travel for work and try to fit in some pleasure, but I have never in my life gone on a “holiday” where the agenda was to do nothing but indulge for days on end.

Do you travel for work with 15 other people? You have a listing for 16-20 people with a pool and you didn’t expect people to book it for vacations?

You could post the link to your listing here- I suspect the wording is such that it attracts big party groups, not quiet family holidays.

And of course “rich kids” make a mess and don’t understand cleaning up after themselves- they are accustomed to having cleaners who do that. Why would you think they know how to clean? Intensive cleaning is a skill, like any other occupation.

@Violette

So by inference if a Host does NOT add a fee, then this “standard cleaning” is to be done by guests.

No. Many hosts do not charge a cleaning fee-I don’t- it is covered bythe nightly price. I certainly don’t expect my guests to vacuum, wash floors, clean the bathroom, wash windows, clean the baseboards, etc. That’s my job.
And as far as guests treating the place like their own, people don’t normally clean their own houses to a standard that a paying guest coming in would expect to find.

[Violette]

I would appreciate feedback on the listing!
https://airbnb.com/h/villacastella

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Well, it looks gorgeous!

I’ll look at it more later but there is NOTHING about your cleaning requirements.

NO WONDER guests go nuts when you spring this last-minute tour on them.

I don’t know how litigious France is. Here in the U.S., what with the pool and the bicycles – but even without – many here would recommend your own commercial liability insurance.

No additional guest fee? I know many suggest that (no additional guest fee), to price in the nightly rate what the price would be fully booked for x guests. But is there a maximum? You mention table service for 40. Do you allow events, like a wedding? How do you price for that? Or could I just have a wedding party here and not pay extra? I would not permit THAT.

Nothing about you living on site. Nothing about needing access for pool and landscaping maintenance ( try to establish a schedule, if possible, like Monday mornings, or mornings before noon (more specific if you can be). Need to fix.

I’d consider linked listings with some bedrooms locked (so you needn’t clean them) depending on how many guests there are. You say ‘16+’ guests, but aren’t the beds enough for only 16 maximum?

With table service for 40 (all available?) if a group of six book they might think that there are enough dishes for six days without washing any? Something needs to be stated about cleaning – not as much as you’d like – but they need to clean the dishes. Also, no glass by the pool.

Do you have plastic tumblers for the pool? Are there depth markers for the pool (both sides)? A life preserver? No pool rules? Nothing about diving? Nothing about diving in the shallow end? See here.

No heating?

More later.

[zillacop]

In your description of the property, it’s a good idea to list that you live on the property. You should also disclose that you will be around checking/watering plants, monitoring the pool.
If privacy is what people are after they need to know these things. And, another reason to have some breaks between guests.
When I hosted a private apartment connected to my house, I tried not to be outside doing yard work, watering when the guests were outside. They knew I lived there, but I tried to give them space.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

@Violette

Cleaning is in house rules,

This is what I saw, and I saw nothing about cleaning in the rules section:

[Rolf]

@Violette

And in fact the ground rules, kindly posted by HostAirbnbVRBO, say “treat your host’s home like your own”. At home, you clean up after yourself, you don’t expect someone else to do it.

Your guests are doing that. The way they leave your house is they way they live. No, they might not ‘clean up after themselves’ at home.

Also, your inference that by omission, airbnb is saying that

@Violette

this “standard cleaning” is to be done by guests.

No, it means that cleaning fees cover standard cleaning, such as everything needed to put the place back into the condition that the host is selling.

I honestly believe that you are targeted by guest groups that see your ‘concepts’ about cleaning etc and say to themselves ‘this host is clueless and so we can take advantage’.

[Spark]

@Violette

Summer is short and people want to have a full week, so we can’t really put days between the reservations.

Double your weekly rate, and only rent it every second week.
(Yes – the high price will scare away some guests… but you only need half as many)

[Ritz3]

3400 a week divided by 20 guests is only 170 for a week stay. I’m sure you’re attracting folks in their 20s to 30s who probably never even cleaned their bedrooms when living at home. Also cleaning after oneself is different than a deep cleaning.

They might be cleaning after themselves but that’s not a deep cleaning. I can’t even imagine what the bathroom would look like after 20 guests have stayed for a week and the kitchen must be a sticky mess.

Just give it a try; lower the number of guests, raise your price and hire a cleaning team to deep clean between guests. See if you notice an improvement. If not, try something different. It might be a trial and error situation until you find what works best for you.

[muddy]

@Violette You advertise for events, that you have table service and seating for 40, you expect 16- 40 people to share 3 bathrooms, charge the equivalent of $24/per person/night and do not mention that you live on the property. You have created a party magnet listing.

You have 5 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms. Why have you crammed beds for up to 20 in?
I suggest you remove all the beds other than enough to sleep 2 guests in each bedroom (10 guests max), and leave only enough tables, chairs, bedding, towels and dishes for 10. Remove words like “events” from your listing.

And why do you need to only accept week-long bookings? There must be demand for less than 1week bookings. Cut your minimum stay length down to 2 or 3 nights, and leave a day between bookings for you to do a thorough cleaning.

[georgygirlofairbnb]

Since I live on site, like you do, I am more firm than you are. - 1. I use OwnerRez and also require a Security Deposit Hold and a contract. - 2. I am absolutely clear that I live on site, and I have a list of groups I will not accept. - 3. I have an limit on the number of kids I allow… a maximum of xxx. -4. I encourage tourist groups, couples and womens groups. -5. I have a minimum age of 30 to rent. -6. I limit the number of guests. I don’t know how large your home / chalet is, but perhaps you are allowing too many people. -7. find professional cleaners…one way or another, or clean yourself. We turn a 5 bedroom house in a day…perfectly. How big is this house? In summary, I would not have even accepted your groups…a family with 8 kids is a no no. Groups of 20 years old is a no no. Kegs of beer and partying outside with audio speakers is a no no. There are quiets hours set and made clear. I think you are probably allowing anyone to book without deciding who is best suited to the house, and you are not setting rules and parameters. Additionally, the signed contract lists the number of adults, kids, and toddlers / infants. It lists the number of vehicles. I lists the number of dogs. This is all designed to force honesty and scare away the partiers. Does it work?..somewhat…nothing is perfect, and they still try to sneak…but it sure helps a bunch.

[georgygirlofairbnb]

You are cramming too many people in your home. The bedrooms look like a hostel or crash pad with all those beds lined up in a room. Not enticing for couples at all. I have a 5 br / 4 bath, with a pool, and I accept a maximum of 12 guests…I provide 2 master suites with King Beds, and then 3 Queen bedrooms. Addtionally, I provide 2 nice cots, to sleep up to 12. In your description, you have no rules about what kind of groups are a match to this house. I suggest you rewrite your description …after you throw out a bunch of beds, and reduce your occupancy. You are getting exactly what ytou are asking for.

HERE ARE SOME CUT AND PASTE DESCRIPTIONS FROM MY LISTING: ( note: This is my rental around the corner and I dont live on this property…I do live on my other property ).

The space

This is a family focused neighborhood.

Golf/Fishing groups = Maximum 5 men allowed.
Traveling Team groups = Maximum 6 kids allowed.

• No Bachelor Party groups allowed
• No Groomsmen groups allowed
• No Under 29 year old groups allowed
• No Party groups allowed

Guest access

This is a neighborhood property on a large lot.
You have full private access to the entire beautiful home and yard.
The garage is not included in the rental.

Other things to note

ABOUT EVENTS

• All gatherings require prior owner approval and a written acceptance of the gathering when making the reservation
• All house visitors in excess of your group, must be disclosed in advance.
• The house and property is for your inputted number of guests only.
• Rehearsal dinners, oyster roasts, shrimp boils, and wedding breakfasts, and all events require prior discussion and written approval. An extra fee is charged. Small family style gatherings are allowed with the extra fee and a larger Security Deposit. You must get a pre-approval from us at the time of booking. You must discuss details with us before placing your reservation.
• No weddings are allowed.

** IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ **
Legal Photo ID may be required: Homeowners Insurance requirement.
Agreement must be signed and returned within 24 hours of booking.
Must place a required Security Deposit Hold (enter information through our Encrypted Software Link) -This Off site transaction is authorized by AirBnb. A valid credit card is required as a security deposit hold. The Hold is released swiftly after an approved departure.
NO Bachelor Party Groups are accepted. Bachelors should Not Request to Book.

Security cameras on property
Exterior Property Parameters, fencing, backyard and Driveway. 24 hour Video Camera security motion recording sensors.There are NO inside cameras.

[georgygirlofairbnb]

Here is description info from my “other house”…where I do live on premises. I hope some of this helps. This one is 4 br / 4 bth and allows 10 guests…which I am thinking of reducing to 8 with a big extra person fee to have 9 or 10.

Part of my Description:

You have found the property that meets your higher expectations.
We are grateful to the Thousands of travelers who have stayed here over the past 13 years.

This is an Adult Focused property.
Perfect for women groups and couples getaways.
Golf/Fishing groups = Maximum allowed is 5 men.

• No Bachelor Parties allowed
• No Groomsmen groups allowed
• No Under 29 year old groups
• No kids groups
• No party groups

Guest access

This is a traditional style original Airbnb, rented out to thousands of guests, for over 13 years. Read years of reviews from past guests. The owners live in a totally separate and Private Apartment over the garage. You reserve the entire primary main home - a house with completely separate “everything". We respect your privacy, but are nearby to quickly assist if you need anything. It is the best of all worlds! You can book here with full confidence that you are selecting a high-quality, well-maintained, multi-million dollar home!

Other things to note

No Parties! This is Not the house for you to Blast your music and have a wild time.
All gatherings require prior owner approval and a written acceptance of the gathering when making the reservation
All house visitors in excess of your group, must be disclosed in advance.
The house and property is for your inputted number of guests only.
Rehearsal dinners, oyster roasts, shrimp boils, and wedding breakfasts, and all events require prior discussion and written approval. An extra fee is charged. Small family style gatherings are allowed with the extra fee and a larger Security Deposit. You must get a pre-approval from us at the time of booking. You must discuss details with us before placing your reservation. NO weddings are allowed.
…
** IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ **
Legal Photo ID may be required: Homeowners Insurance requirement.
Agreement must be signed and returned within 24 hours of booking.
Must place a $200 Security Deposit Hold (enter information through our Encrypted Software Link) -This Off site transaction is authorized by AirBnb. A valid credit card is required as a security deposit hold. The Hold is released swiftly after an approved departure.

Security cameras on property

Exterior Front Door and front porch and Driveway have 24 hour recorded video Camera recording motion protection. NO interior cameras.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Clear language!

Just curious:

@georgygirlofairbnb

• No Bachelor Party groups allowed
• No Groomsmen groups allowed

So bachelorette parties are OK?

@georgygirlofairbnb

All house visitors in excess of your group, must be disclosed in advance.

Maybe it goes without saying but is it 'disclosed and explicitly approved in advance?

You cover it elsewhere but if someone didn’t read down further they might miss it or argue they did.

@georgygirlofairbnb

No weddings are allowed.

I think this is a smart idea. There is a whole line of cases in the U.S. where when something goes wrong at a wedding (or wedding-related event) the wedding party sues and make quite the fuss that after all it was their wedding. Caterers and spaces in the U.S. charge extra for weddings for this very reason.

@georgygirlofairbnb

Golf/Fishing groups = Maximum 5 men allowed.

Does this mean that you can have an unlimited number of women but just five men?
Or no women for fishing of golf groups because . . . because they won’t bait the hooks or they chop up the greens??

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Your description shows that you’ve thought this through, that you’ll host some groups, not others, that there are specific limits. I like it! I would think very helpful to OP or others starting out with such a property.

[georgygirlofairbnb]

I believe I wrote exactly what I mean. I have 13 years of history renting these homes.

1. Bachelorette parties are ok. They are still given rules…no tape on walls. No glitter. There is a huge difference in group behavior between all men and all women. I have never…not once…had a bachelor party where the guys behaved properly and also left the house in good condition. Bachelor parties are not allowed at my properties. Drunk men doing body functions in the front yard does not please neighbors. Drunk men jumping from the deck into the pool is a safety issue. Girls stumbling is not as bad.

2. I do not need to have all visitors explicitly approved in advance. It would be nice, but I am actually flexible. My goal is just to scare away the partiers, and people who dont like rules, not to block every visitor to the house. I appreciate it when they tell me because I dont have worries about too many people then. I dont do anything when they dont…unless the house is left in bad conditon or if a party is taking place. ( Very very rare, and so far, knock on wood, I have never had significant damage of any kind. These tactics are all meant simply to scare away the bad groups, not to micromanage. )

3. Yes, I am ok with women’s groups… up to our max guest number allowed. In my experience, heterosexual women ( and gay women) are all willing to share beds. Heterosexual men dont share a bed. …they crash on couches and floors. Five men are usually appropriately behaved, grill out, sleep in a home with 5 beds, and leave it in pretty good condition. 10 men dont leave a house in good condition and become too loud. In 13 years I have had no womens fishing groups visit here. I have had womens golf groups.

4. I try my dangdest to avoid being discriminatory, and still walk a line of experience, while protecting my homes, my largest investment, and my sanity when on the same property. I welcome LGBT, ethnic groups, and all humans, without questioning or caring about their preferences. I also base my rental decisions on past history and personal experience. I think Airbnb has overreached in many areas. I want to choose wisely about renting my homes, and being a great neighbor and citizen.

[HostAirbnbVRBO]

Please know no criticism intended.

@georgygirlofairbnb

Drunk men jumping from the deck into the pool is a safety issue

There was just an article about party-goers mis-behaving in Spain, I think it was. It seems that guys like to drink and then on these apartment buildings jump from balcony to balcony. Sometimes naked. What could go wrong?

[Spark]

@Violette

We don’t understand why people can’t clean up after themselves, since they usually balk at a cleaning fee anyway.

Airbnb did some market research last spring, and two things people resented were “addon” cleaning charges and being asked to do “chores.” As hosts we can’t bring the same expectations to Airbnb guests that we do when our in-laws come to stay for a week because our in-laws don’t pay us $3,400 a week to visit, and we don’t have to compete with countless other hosts for the privilege of welcoming the in-laws into our home.

[muddy]

@georgygirlofairbnb

I try my dangdest to avoid being discriminatory,

“Discrimination” has taken on a negative meaning in this day and age, but that isn’t the actual meaning of the word. We discriminate between things every day of our lives, choosing things which work for us, be they quality objects, tools and appliances that won’t wear out and easily break, even if they cost more, or marketing to the type of guests who are a good fit for our listings and us.

When it comes to “discrimination” against people, based on their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc, a better and more accurate word might be “judgmental”- assuming things about people, or disliking them or considering them inferior based on what is an inherent part of who they are, rather than as individual humans.

If experience has shown you how the vast majority of all male groups behave at your str, that’s not discriminatory, as far as I’m concerned. You aren’t saying “no men allowed here”- it’s practicality based on experience. Just like an 18 year old couple might be quiet, sweet, respectful guests a host would welcome back, but that doesn’t mean they’d want a booking from the same 18 year olds and ten of their friends.