Help - Guests demand refund for their grocery bill

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sure, for a noob, not for someone who was in real estate already for over a decade… and yes we are all always learning, but many have commented on the OPs situation like this is their first rodeo. And, how do you know they aren’t doing many short term stays? I’ve only been at this for 9 months, but i’ve done 400 stays this year. some others only do 12-24 stays per year.

that’s a legal thing to protect against salmonella (which you wouldn’t require if they didn’t wash the enamel off the egg in the first place!), Australia has the same rules but i personally don’t keep my eggs in the fridge.

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Yes, that is why we do not put eggs on the counter. It is also the law and a restaurant can be fined if found. But of course, nobody will inspect your kitchen - you are on your own…

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I only put eggs in the fridge if I bought them at the store. We typically get fresh eggs from someone with chickens and those will usually go on the counter.

And regardless of the source of the eggs I always set them out to warm up before using them. I wear a helmet to be safe though :wink:

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24

THAT would be a mistake. Fortunately they’re moving out pretty soon. I was a professional landlord for quite a few years, with 7 properties in three different states, 3 different property managers. I learned a lot.

You broke the cardinal rule of renting when you rented a space with a major essential appliance that wasn’t working correctly. We’re not talking about a toaster here. Door slightly bent and fussy to close? And they have kids? In hot as hell Phoenix?? This is not going to work in any universe.

And it sounds like you have more technology than your tenants can handle. You may be a techy but not everyone is. You either have to program it, explain it, and/or you have to leave detailed instructions or yes, you are going to get bothered at odd hours by frustrated tenants.

Never give gifts when what the tenants (your customers) want is money. Amateur move. You will pay for the gifts and in the end, and you will also give them the money. How do you even know they drink alcohol?

You want to kick them out because you’re angry and tired of all the complaining. But that’s not a justifiable reason to deprive a family of housing, which is an essential need they have.

What I would do is this: If they say they want $X , so long as the amount is reasonable, I would pay them with a check and create a receipt signed by both parties. Add language that says both parties agree that this is total and complete compensation for the lost groceries and the inconvenience. (I would google Ariz contracts to find a sentence that says this to get the exact wording.)

You certainly have inconvenienced these folks. Chalk it up to a learning experience.

And remember: these are local folks so taking you to court is pretty easy and cheap for them. Don’t harass or threaten them to try to get them out of there.

I don’t think they are nightmare tenants.

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This is the kind of advice that could land you in front of a judge. When does someone become a tenant, not merely a guest, in Phoenix? In many places it’s 30 days. In parts of New York State it’s 24 days.

I obviously disagree with most of the responses posted here to this situation. But I also have a whole lot more experience with landlord-tenant issues than most people. I’ve had my tenants evicted, I was a real estate agent in Manhattan doing rentals and sales and leases, and I’ve been threatened with eviction myself, as a tenant.

The one bit I really agree with is to limit your stays to 21 days or less, especially if you’re new to AirBnB. That’s what I do now. When I started ABB I didn’t, but the only problem I had was people leaving the space a little too dirty.

Try to see this situation from the tenants’ point of view. They rent a place thinking everything is working fine and they can live with quiet enjoyment during a stressful time for them.

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Sorry, but the host’s account of the situation indicates that these guests, who in fact have not stayed long enough to be tenants, as you refer to them, are scamming her for refunds for something ridiculous, and are coming across as people who will keep finding things to complain about.

A guest’s “essential need” for housing is not the host’s responsibility. I’m sure it isn’t the only place available for them to rent.

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I’m a landlord as well and you may have missed that @humblehaven is also a landlord.

Landlords are not responsible for a tenant’s loss. That is what renter’s insurance covers.

The landlord has a duty to maintain any appliances that they provide, but there is no duty to be magic. Legally, she could’ve probably taken at least a week.

The only time that a landlord would be responsible for a tenant’s loss would be in the case of negligence. There is no negligence here. Guest reported that fridge was not working well. Host bought and delivered a new fridge. A judge would literally laugh out loud at a guest (or tenant) who brought that to court. The judge may also fine the guest/tenant for wasting the court’s time.

The only other reason that a landlord would compensate a tenant is if they wanted the tenant to stay and that’s not the case here.

It really blows my mind that you suggest that a landlord would just write a check to a tenant :rofl: Even if they want to compensate out of the goodness of their heart or to keep the tenant from leaving, it would be given as a rent deduction, not a check. And no agreement would be signed because it’s not an obligation.

Whether or not these guests would even be considered tenants by an AZ judge is probably less than a 10% chance. Because it is only one month, is an Airbnb booking and AZ is very very landlord friendly it would most likely be considered transient lodging which is exempted from AZ landlord-tenant laws. It’s right on the line for the law, but in practice, I doubt that a judge would deem them as tenants - especially with a canceled reservation that makes their stay less than a month. I don’t know if I’d kick them out but I won’t worry about it if I wanted to.

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But things stop working. And the landlord’s duty is only to repair or replace and that was done here. Obviously, if you have a good tenant that you like and want to keep happy then you can provide some compensation but that doesn’t apply here.

And I’m sorry to say this but either your property managers were dealing with this stuff for you, you’re speaking from your host mind, you’ve never had a bad tenant or…or really there are a lot of disgruntled tenants that over-emphasis that they’re landlords, they have always been landlords more than anyone has been and then write stuff like this on reddit, presenting how-they-want-it-to-be or they think it should be as fact. And they always throw in “essential need”.

AZ Law Help is telling tenants the same thing:

Arizona Revised Statute 33-1324 requires a landlord to put and keep premises in a fit and habitable condition including appliances. The Arizona Residential Landlord and Tenant Act does not provide for compensation for incidental damages such as spoiled food from a broken refrigerator. Unless your rental agreement states otherwise a landlord is only responsible for the mechanical condition of appliances.

https://azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=91

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All of those things were accepted by them when they moved in, they accepted the unit as it was. That is basic property law.

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Thank you all for your valuable feedback. I am a long-time landlord for LTR and only with ABB since Feb. This is a very different business model than LTR. I’m open to learning and 7 months is maybe long in some ways, but I’m still learning for sure. My HOA requires 30 day minimum but did have a 2-week tenant in late June via VRBO. They were awesome tenants.

The fridge has worked great so far but yes, the door can’t take being slammed. No report of a cooling issue with fridge prior. The fridge Did Not Stop Working and freezer was perfect. Ice maker worked great too. They pulled items out at delivery so items were cold and I provided a bag of ice.

At the time of their complaint last Thursday night, it was just to report some condensation on packages and that it sounded like the compressor was turning on more than what would be expected. It was not a shoddy fridge and it appears that door was needing a gentle close. More importantly, at the first sign of a complaint, I replaced it with a New Fridge and gave them written notice by text of the status of delivery in plenty of time to prepare.

The tenant was provided a bag of ice prior to the fridge swap which took about 15 minutes. Yes, it is Phoenix, though weather has been pretty awesome with monsoons lately. The food may may been a bit melty if they didn’t pack it with ice right away though I did provide a bag of ice. He made no request to me that day to deliver him more ice…like I’m a hotel.

He has a car and could get more ice to keep things chilled till the freezer and fridge were to appropriate temp. He wasn’t working, in fact, he works from home and I see they order most of their meals and groceries to be delivered and could have ordered ice from me or picked some up. Store is literally 5 minutes away.

On the day he complained it was “obnoxiously hot” in the house at 72 degrees and 78 outside, I realized he just wants to be in control and catered to as “the guest,” at least IMO. This is a tech-savy young man and woman in what appears their 30s. They are only really complaining about Control to have the thermostat decisions. He’s been keeping inside temps on average at 72 and a couple times I see him move it to 73 or 74, which is what it was set to when …after 4 days… he complained in the middle of the night (9:30 PM and 1:30 AM on fourth night) of the heat. That was my clue along with his inflammatory words.

I was initially thinking that he had three prior days to eat the food he wanted to charge me for. I asked if all was freezer items. He said he used freezer items to keep the fridge items chilled. I reminded him I provided a full bag of ice.

I’m looking for best practices and reasonable response as I can get more landlordy vs STR “Host” . Here are his exact words:

“Good Morning. The new fridge is working much better. It’s unfortunate though because with only a 30-minute notice we didn’t have time to put our items in a cooler. My wife had just loaded the entire fridge from Trader Joes’s. We ended up using the frozen items to help get the cooling side of the fridge to keep our regular items at proper temp before the fridge got itself to temp which took 24 hours [BTW, the store said max of 2 hours]. We had to toss all the frozen items as they were overly thawed by the next day. My wife is not happy we lost the all frozen food. Please let m know if we can be reimbursed for these items.”

My immediate response: “Sorry to hear you have lost all of your frozen items and want to blame me. Do you have a receipt? Let me know if you’d like me to contact AirBNB to hep find you an alternate place to stay.”

OK, I know the blame thing was wrong but he was asking ME for money.

So you can see so many issues here with what he framed, right?

  1. Only 30 minute notice - BS as I have multiple texts to him for 1.5 hours on day of delivery. His response? Oh, well I did not look at my phone until 1/2 hour before.

  2. 24 hour to get fridge to cool - store said it would only take 2 hours. Next, he said he had a cooler and yet didn’t have time to use it. Well if he left all the food in there to warm why didn’t he just put items in cooler with ice till it was ready? He had time to go to store and get more ice.

  3. Did not mention ice here at all. I provided two pints of Ben and Jerry’s ice cream and a large bag of ice. No mention of it till I reminded him.

  4. He feels entitled to ask me to reimburse him because he was either unwilling or “unable” to help himself to more ice till new fridge was to temp. [Old fridge was put in the owner’s garage. Not getting rid of a perfectly functioning fridge. Will address fixing when he is gone.]

His response:
“It’s not about assigning blame so much as it is about objective circumstances. Your son text me he was outside with the fridge at 9:21 AM. The total cost of the groceries on 8/10 [Note: delivery of fridge was 8/13] was $123. That included dry, cooled and frozen items. So the cost would be minimal but I felt obligated to ask for a reimbursement due to the circumstances and my wife’s dissatisfaction.”

I sent him copy of text message showing time stamps of 7:58 AM, 8:25 AM, 9:00, 9:15 updates. Delivery came at 9:30 AM. My son was there to assist and clean any mess and take pictures of delivery.

I pointed out to him that he was given amble notice by me prior and that I provided ice cream and ice to use for additional cold. He had time to obtain more ice or ask me or my son to bring him more and did not. He claims the ice helped but that he lost all frozen items. He never found an itemized receipt. I told him I will provide AirBNB with is request and complaint. I had AirBNB reach out to offer them a full refund AGAIN if they want to leave due to their dissatisfaction - no money offered if no receipt offered.

They elected to stay. I’m expecting a low or no review. Last tenant stayed 40 days after two extensions, left dirty and no review.

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I created a new bar space prior to their arrival and chose to give the first guest to use it a free bottle of champagne whether or not they used it. Call it amateur, I’m okay with that and already factored in cost. I don’t know if they drink alcohol. That wasn’t the point. It was my way to celebrate the new bar installed. If they don’t want it, they can leave it. It was cheap.

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It’s worked great for years. No issue with freezer or fridge on cooling. Ice machine was fine. If it didn’t work, would have replaced sooner but did note that the door does not take being slammed and needs a gentle close, which I showed them. I replaced immediately without a beat at first incident of complaint and their food was frozen and cold at the time of the 15 minute change out. It was bringing the new fridge up to temp soon as issue. They had a cooler and a bag of ice. They chose NOT to use their cooler and just left all items in the fridge with the one bag of ice and did not request more nor seek more. They just left it all in there and then asked for their grocery money.

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HOA requires 30-days. I’ve dabbled with shorter… did 14 days recently. I do have a short term form. Chose not to use it this time but will from now on out. Thank you for the tips.

I do have a manual lockbox with key access and a key form they need to complete if accessed. They did not request keys and simply use the code. I also provide an electric garage door opener.

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:rofl:

This was definitely the beginning of the end. He outed himself right there. This guy wouldn’t know objective if it sat down in his lap.

30 minutes is more than enough time to move the contents of a refrigerator into a cooler. In fact, it’s enough time to move the entire refrigerated section of a Trader Joe’s into coolers.

Which explains why he

lost all the frozen items

They just don’t last in the refrigerator, lol, and shouldn’t be used in lieu of ice. I wonder if he uses chunks of frozen tikka masala in his drinks?

Here’s what really happened:

The wife is over his :poop: :rofl:

Am I the only one thinking: Fridge doors should not be slammed? Or that doors in general should not be slammed?

Anyway, you did the best you could. There is no winning here.

You should consider doing monthly rentals on furnished finder. You take a deposit and have your lease signed so that you have the protections you need.

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One shift you should try to make in your thinking and language if you are moving from landlord to str host is to stop referring to str guests as tenants. They aren’t tenants until they have been in residence long enough to legally acquire tenants’ rights- they are guests.

I don’t know how the law works where you are, but if possible, rent only for 28 days max so they don’t qualify as tenants. Leave the 29th and 30th day unbooked if that would work to comply with the “no less than 30 days” rentals.

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I strongly disagree. It depends on where you live, but this kind of thing is done by property managers all the time.

I personally do not like rent reductions and do not work that way because I think the accounting is not as straightforward.

I am always thinking about showing my books to a judge, or heaven forbid a jury. The check makes a clearer display.

What you say about “no agreement being signed because it is not an obligation” doesn’t make much sense. People sign receipts and plenty of other things that don’t involve a formal obligation. Providing a working refrigerator sure sounds like an obligation from here.

What you have them sign is similar to documents I have signed when leaving a job. What I don’t want is them returning to ask for yet more money, so I would have them sign something that says this satisfies their need for compensation for groceries and inconvenience with the old fridge over such-and-such dates.

I always want some kind of release signed if I am handing over money to a tenant, or pretty much anyone.

The other thing that is important to note. Apparently there is no lease here?

If so then hosts are dancing on the edge between AirBnB and their rules, and any local law (and I know nothing about Arizona’s tenant-landlord law, except I promise there is some). If I were this host I would do a little research on tenant law just in case.

The tenants/guests received a new fridge at an inconvenient time of day. Never a great idea when you have a 1 year lease, with 30 days ABB that’s really asking for trouble.

The path to avoid these headaches is simple. Don’t rent with defective major appliances.

If you have to explain how to shut the refrigerator door, you have a problem. You can yell at your kids to do it right but you can’t expect your tenants to yell at their kids.

Having made those mistakes, write this small check and cool down the pot and wait it out until they go.

Alternatively, don’t write a check and ghost them message wise if you want. Not what I would do but if you’re cheap you can do that…

As a professional landlord I made many mistakes, believe me, but I eventually learned how to have happiness and profit as a landlord. My property managers taught me a lot.

But being an ABB host is a little different. For one thing this host is going to get an early negative review. This gets their business off to a weak start, depending on demand in their area.

I don’t know whether writing a check to the guests would improve the review, or not. If I thought for sure it would then I would definitely write the check, especially since the amount is so small you could easily lose that in future bookings.

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What part of “the fridge worked fine” is hard for you to grasp? As far as I read the situation, it kept food cold and frozen, the door was just a bit finicky. Kind of thing a long term tenant adjusts to, as long as it’s not an expensive, high end place, just not great to have in an str.

Complainers like this do not leave good reviews because a host throws money at them for minor inconvenieces. The host is out money and gets a bad review.

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Of course it is. But they had a working refrigerator and then they got a brand new refrigerator. That duty was met twice.

They are not due any compensation so it doesn’t matter.

It doesn’t matter. The duty of providing a working refrigerator was met. They have no right to dictate the delivery time.

I haven’t had checks in a long time but there’s nothing cheap about buying a new refrigerator when someone complains about the old one (even though it was working and was accepted by the tenant at move in).

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You’re going to hate me, dear host, but I’m going to say it anyway. This mindset is only going to cause problems for you, and ding your profits.

You’re tending to think that the tenant/guest should help solve problems that come up with your property.

That is not their job. That is your job. Whether he is working or WFH and has time to go get ice or not or whatever is none of your business.

One question: Does your ABB listing say that the refrigerator has to be closed gently/properly ?

If not I would suggest that they did not agree to the situation when they paid their deposit to ABB, because they did not know the refrigerator was finicky.

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I believe any tenant should report issues. I responded in less than 3 hours to all issues. I also met tenant at the property and showed him everything including the fridge and to be gentle with the door and all works fine. No issue with cooling of food was ever reported. It was only a report (first time occurrence) of condensation and that the fridge sounded like it was running more frequently. I immediately replaced it with a new one and cannot dictate the delivery but asked for quickest service to accommodate this concern. I think that is pretty good service. If he needed more ice or was concerned about the fridge coming up to temperature soon enough, why wait 3 days to tell me after installation?

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