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First, I doubt there is any place in the nation where all the Airbnb hosts in that region would discriminate against a certain group of people. THat doesn’t exist in our current setting. THe vast majority of hosts, I believe, would welcome anyone, and have no interest in discriminating against any group. Our society at present is rather “anti-discrimination” and so are most hosts. So to suggest that a guest of any sort wouldn’t be able to find a place to stay in all of New England is rather silly.
Second, when I say that a person is turned down in one place, they can go somewhere else – I don’t mean that I expect have to book in another city or state. I mean, they can find a place in another listing or in a hotel. I have never heard of a story where a guest said, “I couldn’t find a place to stay in all of Phoenix”. That just doesn’t happen.
Third, private homes are not public accomodations and dont’ have to follow the same laws. Hotels can’t turn down people the way private hosts can, and shouldn’t be able to. Private homes are not public accomodations and US law (FHA) allows people to discriminate in renting out space in their own homes. People naturally should have “rights” to stay in public accomodations such as hotels (since people depend on them, in traveling), but I would not agree that people should have the same “rights” to stay in someone’s private home. Simply the fact that a host opens up their home to rent to the public does not make it into a public accomodation. The fact that the host lives on the premises means it is not defined legally as a public accomodation, and it gives that homeowner more rights in controlling whom they rent to.
Arguing in support of people’s freedoms is not the same as arguing in support of their ethics and moral choices. The ACLU and anyone who defends the First Amendment , are constantly engaged in supporting the legal rights of those with whom they vehemently disagree — to support the First Amendment is to support people’s right to engage in speech we may find detestable. Hence, to argue that discrimination laws shouldnt’ apply in any given situation, is not the same as saying one believes people should engage in discriminatory acts. Try to keep this distinction clear.
There’s a very easy way to protect your means of income against anti-discrimination laws. Don’t discriminate. On the other hand, if there are no anti-discrimination laws people who are discriminated against have no recourse and yes they lose income.
Ellen, Ellen, Ellen. I love your mentality as you know, you are the wonderful type of human Robert Owens surely envisioned in his Utopia. I would have been there with you. May there still be enough of you (and me) in this world to achieve it someday, it would be disheartening to think otherwise.
Meantime back at the ranch, here in Belize, all businesses here have basic common sense requirements of safety, but personal responsibility is foremost. Everyone that comes here must sign a ‘waiver of liability’ before going in any tour or engage in any strenuous activity, or stay in many places (i.e.my island). In this way the ‘I wasn’t told’ nor ‘didn’t understood’ can’t be used to game the system. Stupidity is no excuse.
As to discrimination, whatever the hell that really means, it hasn’t even hit its shores.
I will not depress you all in telling you the hundreds of examples I can give you, of people enjoying fabulous comfortable and rich lives here being afforded from the most asinine lawsuits you could imagine and being paid by yours truly - the American taxpayer.
If Susan is distorting what you said, you aren’t speaking very clearly. You said that people who are being discriminated against can find somewhere else to stay. Susan is pointing out that “separate, but equal” usually isn’t equal.
You keep bringing up houses where hosts live with the guests. I don’t see any logical reason why that should allow you to discriminate. However, whole houses are 63% of Airbnb listings.
According to the Harvard study, people with names that identify them as African American are 16% more likely to be turned down for a booking. That makes a lot more work for African Americans to book an Airbnb and it’s pretty likely that they are being stuck with less desirable listings.
Well maybe because they aren’t baby proofed… If you ever raised kids, you know that babies/toddlers get into EVERYTHING… so everything… from every socket to every kitchen cabinet to every breakable has to be secured against toddlers… This means age 0-4 or so… I have BTDT and do not want to host kids in my listing. I think hosts are entitled to say a listing isn’t suitable for kids. We should not be forced to rent our short term places to kids.
This is a fascinating discussion. I send commiserations from Europe for the apparently bizarre laws and regulations you guys face in the US. There are a couple of things that are not clear to me, though. The obligatory acceptance of children only applies to rentals of entire properties, yes? So if you’re the old-school Airbnb host renting a room in your own house, this doesn’t apply? Or does it vary state to state? The other thing is a question for @Forestsprite. When you say “THe vast majority of hosts, I believe, would welcome anyone, and have no interest in discriminating against any group.” do you have any evidence for that statement other than you simply want it to be true? Personally, I have seen quite a lot of evidence to the contrary. The Airbnb Community provides many examples of hosts who openly display discriminatory attitudes towards guests, there are many examples on this site as well. These statements are made on open platforms so one can only imagine what kind of other thinking goes on unsaid. The studies that have been conducted (someone mentioned the Harvard Business School one) are incomplete and methodologically unsound, granted. But that does not mean that Airbnb hosts are somehow magically immune from the general populations and the alarming number of people who feel increasingly emboldened these days to voice their antipathy to anyone “not like us”.
I dont’ have any “evidence” – I suppose one would have to conduct research into these things to really find out more, and if conducting research…would one get the truth? I base my thoughts on “anecdotal” evidence – what I have seen or experienced in the Airbnb community of hosts, in listings, in social settings.
Yes, I have also seen examples of Airbnb hosts who are/would be discriminatory towards guests. I’ve seen such comments posted – so it stands to reason there are more there, that haven’t been posted. I’d agree that it’s an issue that many people don’t like those “not like us”…but this has been true since the dawn of human history. Don’t you think? “Us” vs “Them” thinking? Doesn’t it exist in every type of social setting? I would guess that though you see some of this in the community of Airbnb hosts – it’s less than you’d see in some random sample of people, the general “John Q Public”. Why do I think that? Well I guess partly in what I"ve experienced of the hosts I’ve come to know, and partly based on the fact that hosts are interested in hospitality, in welcoming others – more than the John Q Public who may not have that interest at all, who may be in the corner saying “how can you invite a stranger to your home? Isn’t that dangerous?”
I wouldn’t’ disagree with you Ellen that most likely there is some level of discrimination happening – in every area of life – and society – – and that separate isn’t equal to equal. As I mentioned to MagWitch-- I think this “Us” vs “Them” thing has been going on for at least the last 30,000 years – since the Paleolithic age, and shows no sign of disappearing tomorrow.
Where I may part ways with you, is with the idea that there should be government intervention in every area of life, – and society – to prevent all things that are somehow unfair, or not equal. I’m for some level of government intervention vis a vis discrimination, but I would draw the line differently than you would. Why?
Partly because the problem is as old as it is – 30,000 years or even more – partly because it’s such an ingrained problem in humanity — there’s always an “us” it seems, and a “them” – as Jacques Derrida pointed out, every time you create a system, you are defining someone as outside the system. Hence one could say that “us” vs “them” thinking is somehow at the heart of the very attempt to understand the world and create order, and sort of inbuilt into human nature…my view is…is such a vexed and profound philosophical problem, truly a realm for simplistic government intervention? I say no. Others may say yes. I think we disagree. I believe that there are better ways to address the shortcomings of the human heart, the human spirit and the human capacity for compassion, understanding and tolerance, than governments creating more laws. So I would say – you can’t legislate compassion or hospitality. You can, however, inspire it, and inspire imitation – by living it.
Where have you heard me saying any of those things? You sound very confused. And frankly, this attack of a response is way out of line in its level of hostility.
I’ve been around here for a while, longer than you I think, although that is not relevant, My point(s): USA litigation laws suck. That is not Airbnb’s fault. Discrimination is rife. It is likely to increase in the current political climate (in the west). If you want to fight injustice against landlords in your country, then do that locally. This is an open forum for hosts across the world. And learn where to put an apostrophe (that’s just a tip).
Well then let’s go back to MY main points, originally posted, which yours don’t have much to do with. This is, in fact, a post about things happening in the USA. There are many hosts in the USA, whom this may interest. If these things I posted are of no use to you, I suggest you ignore this thread and go on to those which are of use to you.
Again, a gratuitious insult, ad hominem attack. I don’t know what the heck is going on with you or where this hostility issues from…but these attacks are inappropriate.
The United States of America is not a “small space.”
All children go many places that aren’t “childproofed”, restaurants, other peoples’ houses, stores, streets, you name it. The only place most children are that is “childproofed” is their home and to some extend their child care providers’. Certainly, most motel rooms aren’t “childproofed”. “Childproofing” isn’t even a thing in the vast majority of the world.
As someone who has yet to become a host, this new wrinkle is very discouraging news.
Having a standard commercial liability insurance policy in force should protect us from something called “advertising injury”, which is what writing/posting something that “hurts” another actually means. In such a situation, the insurance company would get between you and the “injured party” filing the claim. They might not be so quick to pay out, either.
I have posted inquiring what others are now doing in this regard on an existing insurance thread but there seems to be little interest. Perhaps that discussion needs to be revisited.
BTW: where is that “million dollar” coverage Airbnb says they provide for hosts in all this? Has anyone filed a claim to get compensated, I wonder.
@Ellen, I discriminate against all people wearing muddy work boots, but only when they attempt to pass through an outside door leading into my home. Because I do open my doors and allow people from outside to come in, should I be forced to let in the ones wearing muddy work boots in order to not be discriminatory? My husband, for one, will be delighted if that is the case.
We are using the legal concept of discrimination here – bias regarding social categories that have been the basis of systematic historical exclusion. We aren’t talking about discrimination in the general sense of passing judgement on absolutely anything…
But I’m alarmed for the hosts who really don’t want to have children but are legally bound not to state this. And as a parent with young children, I also need to be able to look for places that are ACTUALLY child-friendly so how am I supposed to do that without a proper filter (that hosts now can’t use…).
