Trust your fellow hosts of their bad reviews for guests!

82

I agree that we are not social workers, that Host deserve to know the facts and that egregious guests don’t at all get an 'exemption. Nothing I have written contradicts that. In fact, my point is that not calling out the guest on their violation is a dis-service not only to other Hosts but to the egregious guests and other guests.

Look what I wrote:

Notice the phrase ‘and guest.’ That’s OK, isn’t it?

Then I go on in a later post here to say that the review also communicates to the guest.

Note the word ‘also’ above in that post and the ‘also’ in this post below.

@Nigelknows suggested leaving a review for a guest that violated the rules this way:

My point was that this was a dis-service not just to other Hosts – a point made by many here – but also to guests themselves: this egregious guest and other guests who don’t see guests being called out for their bad behavior. No one except @Nigelknows was suggesting that Hosts don’t deserve to know the facts.

Reviews benefit the Airbnb community. To be sure, this includes other Hosts, **
and also** guests, both the current one and prospective ones.

These objectives – to communicate the relevant facts both to Hosts and guests – are not in opposition to each other. We can do both. Yes it is business, the hospitality business. We can be nice about it.

83

…is NEVER the way to go.

@Nigeldoesnotknow

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85

I had never heard the term pillock before, but somehow it didn’t sound like something terribly insulting. I assumed it meant something like “a pill” or a pain in the butt.

My sweet dog I had to put down in October was named Minga. I gave her that name because I live in a Spanish speaking country, and she appeared at my place (she adopted me, rather than the other way round) on a Sunday, which is Domingo in Spanish. But being female, her name would end in an “a”, rather than “o” and Dominga is too long a name for a dog.

Then a friend of mine came over for a visit one day, accompanied by a drunken Scottish friend of his, who couldn’t get over my dog’s name, laughing hysterically at it, saying it meant something deragatory in the UK. Except in the UK it’s Minger, apparently, and being British, he couldn’t hear the difference between a word that ends in “a” and “er”. ( I had a friend from England who named her daughter Thea, yet pronounced it “Thee-er”. I asked her once why she named her daughter something she couldn’t pronounce properly :rofl:)

And when I looked it up, minga also means something similar to pillock in Italian.

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86

Thank you very much for pointing this out… to make sure about the
rules to include it. Very important.

So your idea of rules would read like this? (does it seem a little harsh)?
No parties. In the event of a party I have the right to immediately
cancel the reservation without any refund and immediately eject
guest(s).

I also found this wording and thought this might cover it below. Do
you like it? It may even help with liability.

Homeowner is not responsible for any accidents, injuries or illness
that occurs while on the premises of this property or its facilities.
The homeowners are not responsible for the loss of personal belongings
or valuables of the guests. By accepting this reservation, it is
agreed that guests are expressly assuming the risk of any harm arising
from their use of the premises. ( or others whom they may invite. )-I
may delete this bracket section.

By agreeing to the house rules guest agrees that violation of the
house rules can result in immediate eviction from the property and the
guest will not be entitled to a partial or full refund and will be
financially responsible for any damages regardless of the length of
stay.

*Do you think I would only need the last 2 paragraphs that summarize it?

thanks again!!

87

I’m not a lawyer, but I doubt that you can avoid liability for accidents that happen in your property simply by putting that in your rules.

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88

True but I don’t think it can hurt. Someone I believe paid a lawyer to write this so perhaps it is helpful.

89

It is not helpful.

If you want legal advice, talk to a lawyer admitted to practice in your jurisdiction.

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90

That sounds reasonable to me. I think other Hosts have that.

I prefer:

If the the Host reasonably believes that the ‘no parties or event’ rule or maximum occupancy rule is violated, the Host can enter the property and with video and sound recording devices, and the guests are subject to being ejected from the property with the reservation cancelled without refund.

BUT, I think it is better to ask a licensed attorney skilled in local laws and STRs to consult with.

I doubt that that this would be enforceable. Maybe the following language is better [?]

Guest agrees that the the limit of the Host(s) or property owners’ liability for injuries or illness
that occurs while on the premises of this property or its facilities is the amount paid by the guest for the booking.

Still, get a commercial liability insurance policy.

How about ‘homeowners and host(s)’?

Still, I wonder about enforceability if the Host is grossly negligent. Maybe better to limit the liability to the amount paid for the booking. You still need the insurance.

Yes, the bracketed section implies it is OK for guest to invite others to the premises. Plus, those invited are not party to the agreement and therefore could not be bound by it. How about instead:

By renting or entering this property you release and indemnify the host(s) and property owners [“Hosts”] from ALL costs they incur (including legal costs) or any liability for any injury suffered, including for legal or non-legal action taken by you, your guest(s) and visitor(s) or anyone on their behalf. You agree that any security deposit provision or payment, and any insurance policy you’ve purchased in connection to this stay is not a limitation to damages you could owe HOSTS under this agreement. You intend this Release, Indemnification and Waiver to be a complete and unconditional release of all HOSTS’ liability to the greatest extent allowed by law. You agree that if any portion of this Waiver, Indemnification and Release is held to be invalid, the balance notwithstanding shall continue in full force and effect.

TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, YOU RELEASE AND PROMISE NOT TO SUE YOUR HOSTS FOR ANY CLAIMS, DEMANDS, CAUSES OF ACTION, LOSSES (WHETHER ECONOMIC OR NON-ECONOMIC), DAMAGES, EXPENSES, COSTS OR LIABILITY OF ANY NATURE WHATSOEVER ARISING FROM OR IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR STAY, WHETHER BASED ON WARRANTY, CONTRACT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), PRODUCT LIABILITY, OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, HOSTS PROVIDE THE HOME “AS IS,” WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING AND TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, HOSTS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ANY WARRANTIES OF SAFETY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, QUIET ENJOYMENT, AND AS TO THE ADEQUACY OF THE DIRECTIONS AND WARNINGS PROVIDED TO YOU.

I do not know whether any of this is enforceable and am NOT providing legal advice. If this is important to you: 1) consult a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction skilled in these matters, AND 2) get a good commercial insurance policy.

And best to have a signed agreement.

91

It’s called a VPN. 20

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92

This extensive post reminds me of the spam going around every few months on Facebook where there is some legalese telling everybody that they’re not allowed to use their likeness or their posts etc. and that Facebook is not allowed to share personal information etc. Or the story of advice to Airbnb hosts telling them the way to get around tenants rights is to simply ask the guest to step out of the Airbnb for one minute at the 30 day mark and then step in on the next 30 day booking.

Putting legalese onto paper does not automatically shield you from these kind of things. Paying a lawyer to fashion clauses that you can insert into your house rules will not override terms of service, common law, or your local tax statutes.

You can pay a lawyer to put anything to paper.

Finally, new forum members many times come here with some sort of anecdotal experience that they will claim invalidates the actual reality of years of experience by hosts. Even when presenting them with verbatim terms of service from Airbnb itself, they’ll claim vastly superior knowledge and poo poo those of us who have taken the time to do our research and present it here - many times these new members have clever names like “Nigelknows’, which become an easy way to smoke them out as it were.

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93

Hi there @Rolf !

I’m not sure what your post is saying, but to clarify mine:

  1. I’m NOT saying that you should focus ONLY on legalese, whether in a listing or signed legal agreement or what a lawyer might cut and paste. GET genuine land skilled legal advice in your jurisdiction and put that in place to limit your liability ALONG WITH proper procedures, recognizing that probably not having a signed legal agreement will be an obstacle, and that a legal agreement is not a substitute for genuine and ONGOING safety measures.

Disclose safety issues but also seek to eliminate, reduce, mitigate them.

  1. Get a quality commercial insurance policy.

  2. While I wrote this as #3, it is #1. Make your place is safe, your listing clear and accurate, your communications about safety and emergency issues written and communicated. This is an ongoing responsibility, not a one-time or even periodic thing. So that means to me;

Your place conforms to the building code and all laws (harder than it seems),
You have first aid kits that are good ones, disclosed, readily available, current,
You have fire extinguishers, tested at least monthly (not hard to do), where you should have them.
You have smoke detectors, CO detector too, ideally tested with each turnover.
You have adequate lighting at night, inside and outside, on the guests’ evacuation route or at any trip potential (e.g., stairs).
You have safety and security procedures in place, disclosed and implemented
You have some written emergency plan in place, implemented and communicated,
You’ve eliminated trip hazards,
You have safety bars in the bathroom, required or not,
You have deadbolt locks and appropriate security measures,
You have adequate signage, disclosure, rules, maintenance, lighting, procedures regarding special features like pools and hot tubs as well as entrance/egress (think snow, emergency, etc).
Your electrical system is up to code, eliminating ‘permanent’ use of extension cords (I think, not entirely sure, that power strips are Ok on a long-term basis)
What am I missing?

94

I adore her name, Minga. I love that your dog adopted you : ) That’s what I say about most of my pets, they selected me. For example, I went to the animal shelter to drop off some food donations, this gray cat saw me enter and he practically knocked over his cage trying to get my attention. I walked over to his cage and he grabbed me with his paws and wouldn’t let go so I adopted him : ) He’s been my shadow for 15 years. Follows me around the house. I can’t even close the bathroom door because he gets upset. Sorry your Minga is gone, it’s heartbreaking to lose a pet.

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95

My advice after 5 years of hosting…breeeeaaathe! This will pass. I have a 4.9 rating due to a few bad apples and it doesn’t appear to impact my booking rate at all. I recently got 3 stars (really?!) because the suite is so small - in spite of the space being very accurately described in my listing. You will never be able to please every single guest and some people should just stay in a hotel. Putting ourselves out there means that sometimes someone is going to take a shot - and some people are just mean. Hang in there!

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96

I agree that many hosts who don’t manage the properties themselves likely give great reviews to guests. I have a self contained apartment in my home that I airbnb. I live below and clean the airbnb myself. A host that doesn’t take on these tasks themselves only has their messaging to go by. I’ve had many guests who are polite in their messages and have glowing reviews but still break the rules.

3 times, I had guests who had excellent reviews but were terrible guests. 1. Left all her things in the apartment at check-out time and went out. She said she intended to book another night but it slipped her mind. She was a host herself so you’d think she’d be more diligent about being a good guest. It took her hours to book the extra night and she asked for a discount. She left the apartment in disgusting shape with intentionally balled up wads of hair, finger nails and used contact lenses left around. 2. Kept leaving the air conditioner on and going out for the entire day and leaving the front door of the house unlocked. When reminded of these things he kept saying “sure thing!” but never did it. All his messages were sounded very co-operative and polite. When he left, the apartment was shockingly filthy including used contact lenses thrown all over the floor. 3. A guest snuck in an additional guest. When spoken to, he said he would pay any extra fees and was very polite and apologetic. He kept delaying payment and of course, after check-out he messaged to tell me he wasn’t paying.

I think two things causes this. Hosts who never see the condition their apartments are left in and don’t live on the property so don’t see the guests violating policies. Secondly, hosts who won’t give negative comments on reviews. I don’t understand this 2nd one because do they want other hosts knowingly passing bad guests onto them? Undeserved good reviews are the same as a host covering up for guest harm. PLEASE BE HONEST IN REVIEWS so that we can make educated choices on who to host.

My Airbnb is priced significantly lower than others of the same quality in my major city. I could be charging $150/night more. I am able to offer an affordable rate because I have the time to manage everything myself. I feel very taken advantage of when guests go against policies and generally act without decency considering the value I offer them. I don’t mind cleaning, doing dishes etc. I consider it part of my job as a host but leaving toe nails and used contact lenses on the floor is beyond reasonable. I’d be ashamed to leave that kind of mess for a host.

I can afford to turn down booking requests if I get a bad feeling. I will be doing so more frequently based on a feeling because unfortunately, reviews are not reliable.

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97

I agree! Despite being a super host and having excellent guest reviews, I’ve never been a 5 star host. I’m still almost entirely booked for the summer and have inquiries or request nearly daily.

I think altogether your photos and good reviews communicate what kind of host you are. When I look for a place to stay on Airbnb I can tell the difference between serious concerns that indicate it would be a bad stay versus fussy particular complaints or annoying guests leaving reviews.

98

I think you’re right about not making it a personal attack and I like the way you rephrased it. Some of the details could be useful though. One person might be willing to deal with specific types of mess. For another, it could be a deal breaker.

Just factual is absolutely best. Sometimes we’re so upset we might make it sound more personal. That’s doesn’t make us sound credible.

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99

Some details are certainly useful. If a host just says poor communication, what does that mean? Did the guest fail to answer messages and give their ETA? Did they neglect to read the check-in information and frantically call the host on arrival, upset that they couldn’t get in? Or was their pre-arrival communication okay but they seemed to not be listening when giving them an orientation tour and acted like they wished to have nothing to do with the host?

I was more suggesting a general, objective approach for hosts who shy away from writing reviews which won’t be entirely positive. Maybe that would make it easier for them to be honest.

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100

This happened to me about a month ago but was not through Airbnb or VRBO. This was a booking through another platform which there is no guest reviews. However, I was extremely helpful communicating and giving specific instructions but at the end she gave me a bad review. My cleaner sent me pictures how she left te place in very nasty conditions with dirty diapers dumped on the floor and garbage everywhere. I feel bad because I went through all the measurements for the guest to be comfortable. By the way, your English is very good better than mine. My native language is Spanish

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101

There’s an American phrase “No good deed goes unpunished.”

I hope you will maintain your goodwill because this guest is an outlier.

One thing for sure: be certain your property is not under-priced. There’s anecdotal reporting here that lower-priced properties are more likely to attract disrespectful guests.

Good luck!

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102

Is that a private box only hosts see?