Special offer vs. Change of stay

First of all - wow! Thank you all for your concerns. I’ll try to explain the whole story as it looks like a hot topic not often discussed.

As @azreala said, I have bought a property from foreign owners who originally bought this apartment as a second home for their annual holiday in Buenos Aires several years ago. The rest of the year the property was rented out by the owners mainly on VRBO and recently also on AirBnB, and was managed locally by a PM firm. My feeling is that the previous owners just wanted for the property to ‘self-support itself’ - they weren’t much looking into profits. In fact, they haven’t made any upgrade throughout the years and were keeping rates quite low to have it constantly booked. The PM firm rarely booked the property themselves as the previous owners wanted to stay involved with the bookings.

I bought this property for two reasons:

  1. Business - It looked like an investment worth making as the property is in a great location very popular among expats and tourists, in a fast growing area. I run some numbers looking at similar properties nearby and I thought I could keep the STR business going and improve it, and with the extra income I could easily keep renting a LTR for myself and still save some. As the property was already managed by a PM, I would get some help to ‘enter’ the STR business and I figured I wouldn’t have to start from scratch, so that was a no-brainer.
  2. Personal - I live in the suburbs of Buenos Aires, 1+hr from this property (very central) and I have a standard long-term lease (2 years in Argentina). Worst case scenario, if the STRs don’t take off as I’d like to, I can move to the property once my lease is up (my husband and I would love to live there!).

Initially, I though to find a LTR for ourselves in the same area as my new property, so that I could manage it without the PM firm. HOWEVER Argentina has a terrible inflation right now, and as @azreala said, the BA market is saturated, as many foreigners bought property 10-15 years ago when the market sunk and property was extremely cheap for those earning USD abroad and are renting them out most of the year. Inflation also means that it is hard to make long-term plans - should I commit to a 2-year LTR and take on the business risks associated with STRs, with so much competition?
In other words - When my current lease will be up (in 6 months), how much would a LTR in the ‘cool’ area cost? And how much will I be making with STR at my property?

So the strategy right now is to try and boost my STR before my lease is up to see if I can make enough money from it that it would make sense to keep it is as business, instead of a home.

When I was buying the property I made clear that I wanted to keep renting it. The former owners were ready to cancel any booking or to wait until the last booking was through to close the sale. On the day of the sale, there was a compensation - net profits from future bookings were split 25% to the former owners and 75% to us (I was told these shares are ‘customary’ in this line of business). We are talking about two guests only, so not much. Specifically, there was no provision about booked guests and honoring reservations and terms of booking on the contract itself, but we signed a paper in front of the notary saying that as a form of compensation for future utility bills and considering the future bookings, we were receiving XXX USD from the sellers.
Also, I had requested that the calendar would remain open as people coming to Buenos Aires are planning their holiday months in advance, however the sellers didn’t do it. In a way, it simplified the booking handover, in another way it ‘damaged’ my business as last second bookings are quite rare in Buenos Aires, from what I get.

All in all, I wanted this to be more of a business transaction - I wanted an open calendar, historical data about guests - where are they mainly from? How long is the average stay? How much has the rate increased over time? What time to they typically arrived with their intercontinental flights? - but the physical distance and the real estate agency filtered these requests. I know only my side of the story and I know that the sellers were very concerned with the oversea transaction, and they didn’t see as a business, so I didn’t insisted too much because I really want to purchase this property for its unique features and location.


I saw the former listing on VRBO and there is no mention of check-in and check-out times. I wasn’t able to find the ad on AirBnB, so I can’t tell. In the case of the 7AMers, since they were regulars they booked directly with the owners or the PM firm, I don’t know exactly, so whatever the check-in and check-out times on VRBO/AirBnB they didn’t apply. These regulars are so trusted that they will pay cash on arrival, they were booked on their word.

The former arrangement with the PM firm was to leave one day between a guest and the next to allow for the cleaner to come in and do a 4-hour deep cleaning, so having 7AMers checking in or 5PMers checking out did not change much with the previous arrangement. As owners, we have no problem in going there on a Sunday afternoon and on short notice, but we realize we can’t pretend that the cleaner - who lives even farther than us - will drop whatever she’s doing and run to our place. (She also charges double on weekends.)

However, I want to give the STR a faster pace, as I have a business to run rather than just costs to cover. But I will have to face cultural differences in approaching work - people here aren’t much concerned with making more money ‘just because’ and most people have a scammy attitude. Once you find a serious and reliable partner (a PM who shows up on time, a cleaner who won’t steal from guests, whatever) you think it twice before getting rid of him/her.

Yesterday we were already traveling to the property to stay there as it was vacant when the Instant booking arrived. We were planning on cleaning the place, just for ourselves. Instead, we spent 5 hours in two to deep-clean it. Again, the deep cleaning of an owner is way deeper than the deep cleaning of a cleaning lady (on a fair note, such a deep-er cleaning like the one we did yesterday is not necessary after each guest, it was more of a big deep cleaning to make maybe once quarterly or less often).

All in all, I think it is not easy to manage a property when you live thousands of miles away. For as good as a PM and a cleaner can be, only an owner really owns the place and will strive to make it nice, clean, fancy…

As for those talking about insurance for STR and liability, there is no such thing in Argentina.
About being legally bound to oblige to any previous booking, I don’t think that the same rule applies for both STR and LTR. In case of a LTR you are discussing someone’s home, in case of a STR the occupancy is of a more transitory nature.

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@PennyM . I wish you all the best… and think you have done a very logical review of how to proceed with your new investment.

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Well,
Depending on your situation I would say at least 3 things:

  1. Consider whether instant book is realistic for you. Are you bound to have disappointed guests, or will it may life crazy running around doing things at the last minute for a listing an hour away?

  2. that check in time. A 7 am check in time essentially means you are giving the guests one night free of charge. I guess it’s ok if it’s a lucrative booking, but otherwise can be very problematic.

  3. Consider the professional property management relationship. What services are they offering vis a vis what you yourselves are doing. If you have a professional firm, yet are still running around as if you didn’t, then there may be an element of overlap and need to redefine your areas or get rid of the professionals and just run it yourselves.

Finally, the drama is what comes with running an airbnb. You will have more of it. Get ready for quite a ride!

:smile:

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I forgot to reply about handover with VRBO bookings and reviews. With Airbnb there was no booking and I don’t know what their ad was. Maybe they took it off as soon as they decided to sell the property. As for VRBO, i contacted VRBO and they said that any arrangement as far as existing bookings would have to be dealt with between the sellers and the buyer. It is not possible to transfer listing, but a reviews transfer is possible and should be initiated by the former owners. I have asked them to please contact VRBO support to request the transfer, but I received no reply from them. So I haven 0 reviews on Airbnb and 0 reviews on VRBO.

Existing bookings made through VRBO will be dealt by the former owners (i.e. Deposit refund). D

Thank you for your your suggestions - I share your concerns. Right now I had instant booking and also smart pricing enabled because I needed a boost on Airbnb. My listing has been live for about a month but I haven’t received a single inquiry, just this instant booking. Hence, in a sense it was helpful to get a foot in the water.

We have been running here because we’re new and we don’t know the house - if we want to increase our rates we should also offer a service consistent with our target rates. This property is very nice but TLC is overdue. The former owners weren’t able to visit in the last two years so there are walls to paint, locks to change and fix, etc. we are all hears with our first guests and they’ve provided a lot of helpful insights. We think word of mouth is still a powerful marketing tool and we want to keep our customers happy – by showing up to greet them we show we care and that we are committed to make improvements.

You wrote exactly what I wanted to say “12 hours?!” - Australians consider that a walk in the park!

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What a shame you couldn’t have have transfer of bookings and reviews written into your sale agreement, good for others to think of fir future purchases though!

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I hear you! However for “us” Europeans that’s quite a flight. :grin:

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@Emily -
VRBO/HA officially does not transfer reviews when a property is sold.

@PennyM - Technically, anyone can leave a review for a property on VRBO/HA, not just people that book through the site. So your friends or family could leave reviews for your property without having stayed there. They leave it up to the owner to police the reviews. So you could “seed” the listing with a few reviews here in the early days before you get bookings. They are starting to mark reviews as “verified” for those guests that have booked through the VRBO/HA platform and leave a review, but that is not perfectly functional yet, and most listings will have a mix of verified and un-verified anyway, especially those that have been in business for awhile.

I know my neighbor started to get his repeat customers (direct bookings - at least I presume the reviews are from his repeat customers) to give him reviews through VRBO once I started catching up with him on the number of reviews.

Please note that I am NOT suggesting you make up reviews. But you may be able to “cross-seed” from AirBnB to VRBO if your first reviews come in through AirBnB.

From the other side, I booked a property through Airbnb in Palm Springs months ago for a trip we’re taking in about a week. I booked way in advance because I had very specific things I was looking for, one of them being a place that would take my elderly 45 lb dog as we are driving down with her (most places had 25 lb weight limits). Anyhow, I noticed one day that the property was no longer listed on Airbnb, or anywhere. I did a bit of snooping and saw it was for sale (it’s a 9 unit bldg, all STRs). Then I saw it had sold. I wrote the previous owner, thinking for sure my trip was going to be cancelled, but he said my reservation was still good, although he wasn’t very forthcoming. I’ve been very uneasy, although the former owner has other properties on airbnb and has a good reputation so I don’t think he’d lie to me. Fast forward to a few weeks ago. I looked again and now it seems to be called a “boutique hotel” with the same name. It’s still getting rave reviews, and the local PM seems to be the same person the previous owner used that was consistently mentioned in reviews as being amazing. The prices seem to be way higher than what I paid, so now I think we got a really good deal! They still allow dogs, etc, so not sure what all has changed. I do know that they are really cracking down on STRs in Palm Springs, which I’m guessing is why the former owner wanted out. Anyway, my point is that I’m very glad they’re honoring my reservation and will be way more likely to return, even at the higher price if we like the place. If they had cancelled ny reservation and I saw they were still operating as a hotel or STR, i would not have been a happy camper!!! I think honoring the existing reservation is the right thing to do!!

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It’s now a good thing that your 7am guests are paying cash on arrival! If you find them to be good guests, just have them book directly with you next time and save everyone the fees.

Thanks for explanation about how this transfer went down. I think the sellers made a good deal of 75-25 with you. How many carry over bookings will you have?

Our real estate agent said that 75/25 was ‘standard’ in this type of transactions. I didn’t even investigate as I didn’t feel there was room for any negotiation and it wasn’t a lot of money.

We had three carry-on guests: the first one was another regular, booked through VRBO. He stayed under our roof for one night only. The second ones stayed for a week and booked through VRBO. It was their first stay and weren’t aware of the sale. They were concerned about getting their deposit back, so they wanted to get in touch with the former owner (the PM gave them an alternative contact). The third guests are the 7AMers.

I am writing to the second ones to see if they’d leave me a review on VRBO to help me get the business going, however I’d like to make sure they’ve received their deposit back before asking for a review.

So just to clarify, you have guests staying with you that you have no deposit for??? Surely the previous owners should have given this to you. What if stuff is broken & you and the previous owners who have no loyalty to you disagree and just give the deposits back as they don’t want the hassle?

Also, you sound absolutely lovely penny and I can only hope to have such a dedicated host at my next Airbnb rental (an organic banana farm in a few weeks in fact). I hope it all works out.

I can’t help but point out a few tips to you if I may, in the event you enter into more business transactions. The real estate agent is not yours (unless you hired a buyers advocate or broker), they act for the vendor and thus cannot be trusted to give figures like the 75/25 which are in your favour. If they were also looking out for your best interests, they would have ensured that EVERYTHING was in the written sales agreement and there were penalties for non compliance by the previous owners, you cannot have any verbal agreement outside of a written agreement- none. Thus your rental deposits, keeping listing open etc etc should all have been in there.

I would be checking your contract with the property management firm very closely and making sure it’s in your best interests and get competitive quotes from other local providers and compare. They don’t seem to be doing anything at present so I’m not sure what benefit they are offering you. It’s the same reason I don’t have a cleaner, they small benefit is outweighed by the time I will still spend arranging the job with the cleaner, checking it and doing the extras so I may as well do the whole job myself.

Laugh all you want forum users (I did actually go to law school so I’m not an idiot) but you can learn a lot about your rights, contracts and rentals gone wrong from shows like Judge Judy and Peoples Court on YouTube and they are pretty funny too.

I often watch it on my iPad while I’m cleaning my Airbnb he he

Emily, you make a good point, indeed! I didn’t think about the deposit thing. As of now, all of the VRBO guests are gone and no damage was found, so PHEW! It was smooth sailing.

Anyway, since the deposit was part of the booking transaction on VRBO, there is no such thing as the former owners not returning it or handing it over to me. It came to their account and will be returned from their account.

However, the 7AMers have no deposit since it is a direct booking. I’ll mention this to the PM as this guest contacts him directly every year. I suspect the answer will be that there is no deposit required since this guest comes every year and they know each other. However, everything is okay until it is not.

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I’m confused about the deposit. Suppose something goes wrong and you have to charge the deposit. Are you saying it’s not accessible to you? So if they break a window for example, their deposit gets charged but the previous owners get the money?

I think we should start a new show called Judge Emily! :smile: just for Airbnb mishaps. :smile:

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I have no access to the deposit, since the booking was made through the Sellers’ VRBO account 4 months ago. I realize that this puts everybody in a bad spot:

The sellers, as they don’t know what happen when the guests arrive to the property that is no longer theirs. What if the buyer (= me) changed her mind and decided not to honor the booking? After all, I didn’t sign a paper saying I was going to. Or what about if I changed radically the property and the incoming guests didn’t find the kind of property they had paid for?

The guests, as they have two persons involved: the one they booked with and who has their deposit, and the current owner. I saw a glimpse of surprise (and worry) when they were told that we are the new owners. However, finding the same Property Manager they had been interacting with by e-mail tranquilized them.

The Buyer (= me) as I had no damage cover and no deposit. What if the former owners started a false damage claim with VRBO? Would had I been involved in a fraud case, as well?

The proper course of events should have been to alert those guests to re-book on VRBO with me, but then cancellation policy would apply and money would have been potentially lost (the cancellation should have come from the Sellers). However, I believe such request might have scared away the guests… things start getting complicate they are not tech savvy, and don’t want any risk or complication.

Thankfully, everything went okay because all of the parties involved behaved well, but I realize only now that it was a risky move.

But you said the previous owners were willing to cancel the bookings and let you rebook them? If you only have a few carryover guests, it’s manageable. If you had hundreds….oooooboy!

No, wait. They said they were talking about cancelling any upcoming booking because they thought I was buying the place to move there immediately and I wouldn’t be open to accept ‘their’ guests. Since this was not the case (I’d like to stay in my current lease until it expires), I indeed told them to leave the booking in place and keep the calendar open. They closed the calendar shortly thereafter to avoid having too many carry-on guests.

Now I have zero reviews and no booking after April 11th. Have asked them to please contact VRBO support to transfer their 21 reviews (which would be put me as the 4th property in my neighborhood), but so far nothing. I can see they’ve opened my e-mail several times but they have never replied to my request.

You could try opening on Trip Advisor which will let you collect reviews from guests and manage them. I am not sure how a transfer deal would work?

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