Thank you so much for your detailed reply. I truly appreciate it.
Gut you are obviously very good at what you do!!
Your clients are lucky!!
That said, you should still
Lose the love swansâ:laughing:
I think most guests with a mobility disability would be fine with your place and appreciate the extra touches. The ADA compliance rules are designed for the worst case scenario, and then some. Most people with a disability have learned to adapt and can manage in a less than ideal setting. I mean we usually have no choice! Anyway I would be surprised if someone wanting to stay did not ask questions about suitability first. And explaining it the way you just did should be fine for them to decide. Ramp steepness, like door width, is something they have minimum standards for but which most people can manage somewhat steeper ramps or narrower doors.
Weâve all had experience of people saying that a venue such as a restaurant or bookshop is âwheelchair accessibleâ when it has a step (âoh,well we can lift you up the step in your wheelchairâ. " Errm, no thanks!") or the accessible toilets are used for storing boxes âbecause no one ever uses itâ. So asking ahead is something I would think all people with a disability would do and not just rely on the âwheelchair accessibleâ box to mean fully ADA compliant.
Someone who uses a wheelchair may have much stronger arms than you. I noticed over the years that I could get up increasingly steep ramps and even small hills (250m, 1:10 slope). The 120cm width, slightly wider than for doorways, is designed to include wide, âbariatricâ wheelchairs. I find 90cm to be plenty wide for my standard chair. I appreciate that when you are designing public buildings you need to (or should) make them as accessible to as wide a group of people as possible, and rely on the designated standards that donât make assumptions about someones age or fitness. However in your own home or for staying as a guest temporarily in someone elseâs âthe perfect should not be the enemy of the goodâ as they say.
This is fascinating, particularly @JamJerrupSunsetâs contributions.
I have two cousins, and three friends confined to a wheelchair. They are confined. No standing. No walking enough to use a non-compliant toilet. Some have never walked, while others have lost their mobility due to disease. Cousin S hasnât fit into a 24" chair in at least 10 years, while Cousin B could probably hang out in one that is only 12". Friend J has found that her lower half is expanding now that she canât move enough, and has just upgraded to a larger chair. I am too polite to ask her how big that chair is.
The point of the ADA in the United States is not to account for âworst case scenarioâ which is a hateful way to put their lives, but to establish standards. In the United States, if you say âhandicap accessibleâ you are stating, in shorthand that you meet the ADA standards.
This is a real issue for my family and for my friends. If you check that handicap accessible box and you are in the US, you should meet the ADA standards. Otherwise you are âalmostâ handicap accessible, or accessible to people with only certain limitations. In fact, at least two of the five people who I love dearly, would sue the hell out of you if you stated in your listing that you were âhandicap accessibleâ and werenât.
And no. I am not going to tell these people that they are the worst case scenario.
I used to work in risk management so âworst case scenarioâ just means the largest or widest door you would ever require. Nothing to do with judging the people with disability.
As far as whether âWheelchair accessibleâ needs to mean ADA compliant again you should not treat your relatives and friends as though they canât make decisions on their own. Thatâs the real âworst case scenarioâ for being disabled, having non-disabled people make decisions for you without asking you what you want to do. âWheelchair accessibleâ should not be taken to mean ADA compliant but âthis is someone I can contact and see if the place is suitable for my needsâ. If you required an official audit before being allowed to tick that box then I doubt hardly anyone would ever do so. Even if it meant ADA compliant I would still ask ahead of time. It is called: âdonât make the perfect the enemy of the goodâ. It would be a pity if for example someone didnât advertise their place as âwheelchair accessibleâ just because the door frame was 30" wide. This is information which should always be discussed ahead of time, like bathroom accessibility. By that definition my own place isnât wheelchair accessible. And yet here I am typing this while sitting in one!
I didnât think that AirBNB had that designation, but I see that you are correct⌠the designation is now " Wheelchair accessible" not Handicap Accessible, so that does change the discussion.
My cousins both have at least a master degree⌠they are pretty damn vocal about what they need. They need a toilet that they donât need help to use. They want to be able to instant book like other guests. They donât want their physical crap to change their relationship with the world. It is a daily struggle.
Perhaps you should ask first them what they think before speaking on their behalf.
I got this information from an architect who is required to design bathrooms that comply with the Americans With Disabilities Act. People in wheelchairs are more likely to scald themselves on plumbing pipes because they must get closer to them in order to reach the faucets. Also, some people in wheelchairs are paralyzed. Here is the verbiage from the below link. The reason there are exposed pipes is because the pipes canât be in a cabinet or the wheelchair bound person couldnât reach the faucets. Havenât you ever been in a restaurant bathroom and noticed that the pipes are wrapped?
4.19.4 Exposed Pipes and Surfaces.
Hot water and drain pipes under lavatories shall be insulated or otherwise configured to protect against contact. There shall be no sharp or abrasive surfaces under lavatories.
Wow. Maybe I already have!
You are literally explaining disability to a person in a wheelchair. You donât think I might not be able to work out for myself why exposed pipes might be a hazard? To anyone. It is the equivalent of a man explaining sexism to a woman or a white person explaining racism to a person of color. Please stop.
Iâm am totally aware that the problem were my flappy arms and not that ramp , but I just wanted to put things in perspective. I also wanted to point out to everyone that wheel chair accessibility is a lot more than an apartment on a ground floor.
Your extensive replies are very valuable to get a wheel chair user perspective. Although I agree with a lot of things, I would like to point out a few things:
How do you expect someone who probably doesnât have a clue about accessibility to communicate about it? Noth having a clue is the case for a very large percentage of hosts.
I am totally agreeing with you, but wouldnât it be easier for you to know that a place is really accessible when this is stated? Instead of having to call to double check everything? Would other people accept to having to double check everything? âSir, I can see your company provides a bus with a toilet between Lima and Cuzco, but are you sure there is really a toilet on the bus?â
A solution in the case of hotels could be to obligate new builds to provide several rooms (10-20%) that were designed following âuniversal designâ principals, making them accessible for the widest range of people possible. There is no reason why hotels couldnât rent these rooms to all people and have them occupied regularly.
I could mention several situations where people had to âadaptâ but that luckily are already history. Things should evolve in the direction of full accessibility for the widest range of people possible, allowing them to fully participate in society without being inconvenienced. This should apply to all public spaces (roads, parks, sidewalks), public services (transport,âŚ) and also semipublic spaces (e.a. shops, hotels, office buildingsâŚ), most certainly when they are newly built !!! For existing buildings, heritage buildings,⌠this is not always possible, although there is always a âbest solution possibleâ. The other exception is private homes, although even there governments should actively inform people about building homes that could be âadapted to accessibleâ if necessary.
Info to others: Quite a few wheelchair users are in a wheelchair because they donât feel anything in their lower body, so they wonât feel anything burning them, at best they will smell that something is going wrong. A harmless looking discharge pipe could become dangerous when pouring boiling water down it.
In short, I fully agree with @smtucker. Standards should be put in place and respected. Not only to make the world evolve in the right direction, but also to allow us to communicate correctly about accessibility.
One could argue that there needs to be more gradation in âaccessibilityâ, in the standards and also for AirBnB ticking boxes.
Not really the same but can be used as inspiration: MisterBnB gives you the choice between GAY / GAY-friendly / (not listing on their site). Maybe AirBnB should also have 3 are more boxes to tick.
OMG, itâs her family, maybe they have already spoken about this.
So I am gay, does this allow me to speak for all the gays in the world? And are straight people not allowed to speak for any gay in this world. I donât think so. Any person who isnât gay is fully allowed to defend my rights . They might not do it as I would, but itâs better to have my rights defended at 75% than not having my rights defended at all. I donât think that anyone defending my rights is considering me a child or a helpless person.
Firstly let me apologize for my intemperant comments. Any people who work towards supporting people with disability are the gold standard in my view. I volunteer with a group of people with intellectual disability in Australia. The general idea is that we are not there to remove all risks to their lives but support them to make decisions in whatever capacity they can. The policy adopted, a while back was that they, as adults, are supported to live in the community. Which includes the spaces we meet. This can actually be quite challenging. There are rules and regulations (for example as a volunteer I know nothing of their medical or disability history) but fortunately I work with people who are professionally qualified and experienced and follow their lead.
So having said that here is my view, for what it is worth. ADA standards, or the equivalent in other countries, are the Gold Standard. It would be awesome if all building codes required they be built to a standard which meant they were 100% accessible. I understand why someone in a wheelchair like myself is okay going through a door that is only 30" wide. Another person may not have the same level of motor control and need a much wider doorway to enter safely.
The ADA (or whatever in your country) are designed on the basis that the person with disability does not need to ask in advance if it is suitable for them to use. That is a good thing. In practice not all businesses are required to follow them. In my own country I spent many months in a part of town with lots of new apartment blocks until I found one with level access from the street even though this was a planning requirement for all buildings. I would ring realtors up in advance when considering an apartment and ask âis it level from the street?â. âSureâ, theyâd say, except for a small 3" step". And also no matter what you do you cannot guarantee that every PWD will still be able to use them. In most cases people are given an exemption for existing buildings where retrofitting would constitute âan unfair burdenâ. Heck I even worked for a bank which promoted itself as âdisability friendlyâ when I couldnât reach the floor my project team was on as I was barred from using the goods lift after I complained when it was out of order for two weeks.
So what to do? Again the Gold Standard would be that everyone with ADA compliant premises. Not going to happen especially as AirBnB hosts premises arenât legally required to be compliant. If you gave them the option of only saying âwheelchair accessibleâ if that meant ADA complaint will that (a) lead to hundreds of thousand of AIrBnB hosts spending millions of dollars retro fitting their houses to make them compliant, or (b) unticking that box thereby denying choice to many PWDs who might only require a ramp and access to the bathroom but need to discuss in advance? Perhaps they need to expand that section so it specifically says âNeed to discuss in advanceâ.
Let me finish with an anecdote. When I was permanently in a wheelchair I used to go to a gym near my place. There was a sort of stagey relaxation area I couldnât get up to as it involved a step. One day I was nearby and the architect was showing a group of students around the space pointing out all the features. He seemed so proud of his work. I waited for the right moment and then interrupted him. âSo Mr Architect how come you didnât bother putting a ramp up to the relaxation area then?â. His reply: âErrm, it wasnât in my briefâ. âSo whatâ, I said, âyou couldnât have just done it anyway, it was only a 6â ramp?".
So thanks for doing the work you do. Sorry if I seemed unappreciative. As my PhD supervisor once said to me: âwe should work to overcome injustice wherever we find itâ.
I am sorry EllenD, that was very rude. I apologise. I love the free exchange of ideas on this forum even though rarely contribute.
smtucker I apologise for my demeaning words. We all do our best and this should be a forum where people are free to support each other. Even if I donât agree with everything you say you have every right to say it.
Can I also add something as a gay host so a bit off topic. I think the reason for not having a âgay friendlyâ tick box is it gives people an excuse not to tick it and not seem homophobic. I donât say I am gay but have a âruleâ that says: âThis is an LGBT gay friendly householdâ. This is so it will be picked up by search engines as such.
âInfo to others: Quite a few wheelchair users are in a wheelchair because they donât feel anything in their lower body, so they wonât feel anything burning them, at best they will smell that something is going wrong. A harmless looking discharge pipe could become dangerous when pouring boiling water down it.â
I mean what? Really. Do you think all PWDs are like 6 years old?
I said âinfo to othersâ so that people not in the know would also understand the reasoning behind what @EllenN said. Which in fact was a very good point. This doesnât mean that I consider all PWDâs 6yoâs. A bit of a strange reasoning I believe. If this small explanation can keep 1 PWD from burning himself and give 10 PWD better user comfort in a kitchen, in that case the post has been worth is, isnât it?
To make the comparison to something again not really the same: For most gays it will be common knowledge that unprotected anal sex will put them at risk. But please believe me, lots of 18yo boys who have fled there small provincial villages in the mountains and have come to Lima, are not really aware of the risks. They arrive here in the gay capital of South America, where all of a sudden there world opens up and everything is possible and available. Needless to say that this causes disasters. Just the other day I was educating a younger friend of my hubby about certain risks. I donât consider him a 6yo, I just donât want to see him harmed.
You are right, always supposing that someone canât take care of themselves is wrong. Supposing that everyone is well informed and can take care of themselves is also a wrong to me.
BTW, I totally love how you spoke up to the architect about putting a ramp in the relaxation area . Architects should know that most clients ar unable to come up with the perfect brief and always need at least a tiny bit of guiding.